Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

I don't know much abut ethyl acetate.

I read up on it a little.
It requires acidic conditions to hydrolize to ethanol ,as I read it. Our tanks are basic.
It is also less miscible in water than ethanol or acetic acid.
Unlike you, I wouldn't have ready access to it anyway. I'm not sure it wouldn't work but I don't see an advantage; more of a disadvantage.Vodka and vinegar are cheap and easy for me.

As far as bolus dosing vs spread dosing goes, you can dose either vodka or vinegar over a 24 hour period rather than as a bolus dose. In fact for vinegar dosing in large amounts spreading it out during photosynthetic (higher ph periods) is strongly preferred to avoid a precipitous ph drop. The acetic acid deprotonates to acetate quickly on entering the basic salt water.
Vodka moves ph slower as the ethanol must oxidize to acetic first and does not deprotonate.
Both have about the same effect on ph over the long run but acetic acid really can't be bolus dosed in significant amounts without a quick ph drop .

I prefer bolus dosing because:

I've always done it that way and I reckon the bacteria in my tank are used to it.

According to a least one study anaerobic denitrifiction by the facultative heterotrophic bacteria increases when the levels of organic C is higher at a given time.
Slow dosing in flowing water might not provide enough C at one time for enough bacterial mulm to form and create as many hypoxic areas as larger increments of the same total amount per day would . If just a little organic C is present at one time the smaller numbers of bacteria would still consume it along with N and P for food but the extra kick from respiring the O from the NO3 leaving some unbound N to form N2 gas and bubble out would not occur since the O2 would never be exhausted.

The more I read about what GAC removes and doesn't remove the less certain I am about it. There are a vast numbers of diferent of organics and other molecules in seawater .Further exactly how carbon attracts things is not as simple as adsorbtion,binding or eletrostaic attraction but rather a sum ofl inter molecular attraction forces.

I did find this via Wikipedia, though:

Physically, activated carbon binds materials by van der Waals force or London dispersion force.
Activated carbon does not bind well to certain chemicals, including alcohols, glycols, strong acids and bases, metals and most inorganics, such as lithium, sodium, iron, lead, arsenic, fluorine, and boric acid.


So it seems it wouldn't bind the ethanol.

BTW,

Van der Waals forces include attractions between atoms, molecules, and surfaces, as well as other intermolecular forces. They differ from covalent and ionic bonding in that they are caused by correlations in the fluctuating polarizations of nearby particles (a consequence of quantum dynamics<sup id="cite_ref-Abrikosov_1-0" class="reference">[2]</sup>).


Even if the gac attracted some vinegar or ethanol, the bacteria would just consume it there ,just like from any other surface it might be hanging on to. The bacteria are largely benthic.


 
Most nailpolish removers use ethyl acetate, and I have seen it sold in places like home depot IIRC. It can be hydrolyzed under basic or acidic conditions, it just varies in mechanism. For example in acidic medium the proton activated the carbonyl to nucleophilic attack by a water molecule, opposed to straight nucleophilic attack by a hydroxide ion (strong nucleophilic than water). True it has a lower miscibility, but its around 8% in water, at the amount we would use it would be much lower than the limit.

True about van der waal forces, but I think the small atomic size of those molecules makes those forces negligible and charge factor often dominates. Induced dipoles are more predominately seen in long chain carbons often found in polymeric materials. I did forget that bacteria can and will colonize on the GAC in addition so i guess the point is moot then.

I think GAC more or less works by having a being a highly porous material with a high surface area, able to trap a size range of molecules depending on its sieve size.
 
I'm interested in alternative organic C sources.

Another that might be worth a look is aspartic acid/aspartate ( C4H7NO4).

As an ammino acid not synthesized by the organisms in our tank but needed by them.So,dosing it it might give a double benefit. The extra N might also be useful in offsetting the skew toward nitrate removal vs inorganic P which occurs due to anaerobic digestion.

It's easy to get and inexpensive from natural food stores like i herb. com.

Miscibility might be an issue, but it can be dissolved before dosing. One fellow just put it in a filter box in particulate form and let time dissovle it.
 
I'm interested in alternative organic C sources.

Another that might be worth a look is aspartic acid/aspartate ( C4H7NO4).

As an ammino acid not synthesized by the organisms in our tank but needed by them.So,dosing it it might give a double benefit. The extra N might also be useful in offsetting the skew toward nitrate removal vs inorganic P which occurs due to anaerobic digestion.

It's easy to get and inexpensive from natural food stores like i herb. com.

Miscibility might be an issue, but it can be dissolved before dosing. One fellow just put it in a filter box in particulate form and let time dissovle it.

Tom, please let us know how that goes. It'll probably be anecdotal evidence, but that can still be useful.
 
I'm interested in alternative organic C sources.

Another that might be worth a look is aspartic acid/aspartate ( C4H7NO4).

As an ammino acid not synthesized by the organisms in our tank but needed by them.So,dosing it it might give a double benefit. The extra N might also be useful in offsetting the skew toward nitrate removal vs inorganic P which occurs due to anaerobic digestion.

It's easy to get and inexpensive from natural food stores like i herb. com.

Miscibility might be an issue, but it can be dissolved before dosing. One fellow just put it in a filter box in particulate form and let time dissovle it.

An interesting idea, I think that amino acid may be present in proteins (meat) found in brine/mysis ect. I like where you are going about the addition of extra nitrogen to help the consumption of inorganic phosphates. Also to help solubility one can mix it in the alkaline seawater, the pka of a carboxylic acid is around 5, meaning at ph 5, half of the acid groups are in the deprotonated form. The conjugate base lacking a proton has a net negative charge allowing for increased solubility in water. Sea water is 3 orders of magnitude more basic, which would lead me to believe most of the carboxylic acid groups (>99%) would exist as the conjugate base.
 
Probably is in the proteins, but don't think a little extra would hurt particulary in a lightly fed tank.
Thankyou for the walk through on the soulbility. It helps.

I If someone is at a point where nitrogen is low it seems a nice way to add it vs KNO3 etc . Adding a useful ammino acid ,organic carbon and a small amount of nitogen for balance to PO4 could be a nice triple play.

If I try it , to account for the dilution variables , I''l reduce the vodka dose 2.5ml for each gram of aspartate . It would be a 20ml reduction per gram used in lieu of vinegar .
 
great thread, been following since Febuary. My reef is a 230 gallon tank with DSB 9 years old, doing great. had an outbreak of red slime. this occurs wherever my brain and hammer coral sting the Stoneys, the die off turns to slime fuel. Started dosing a shot of vinegar every day in the spring, I have dosed ~1.7 gallons. Also increased water changes from every ~6 weeks to every 2-3 weeks. tank started looking better in about 2 weeks. Slime is gone. I now just pour 3/8" in a standard plastic cup (12oz?) dilute with sump water and pour into a Kent Aqua dose and drip it in.
 
Great thread. This is something I decided to start reading up on over the weekend. I'm planning on simply going the ATO kalk route as this seems the simplest thing for me to do. My plan is to change my ATO to only pump when the lights are on since you have mentioned multiple times in the thread that it is better to dose vinegar during photosynthetic periods. Thankfully this is simple enough since I have an Apex that controls both my lighting and my ATO.

One thing I'm a bit nervous about is currently the DT is fishless. The fish are in QT for the next ~ 6 weeks at which time I'll move the pair of clowns and Scooter Blenny back to the DT. I'll start off with your 12ml/gal for the kalk saturation and ramp up from there. By the time I get to vinegar exceeding the 48ml/gal it will just about be time for the fish to return so...

Anything I should worry about specifically with a fishless environment? Anything else to worry about with introducing fish back into a carbon dosed system?

Thanks again for a great thread. I think I understand about 20% of it. :)
 
Thanks,

It's not my 12ml ; it from Craig Bingman as cited in the Reef Aquarium 3 by Sprung and Delbeek.

A fishless tank may be low in nitogen and and/or phospahte or get that way with organic carbon dosing. Test your nitrates and phospahte along the way . You may not need the full 48 ml even with fish. When you add them the tank will get more nitrogen and phosphorus from their waste, and respiration as well as foods.

Personally, I'd dose the vinegar and vodka separately from the limewater so I haven't tried the ato method in a while.

In an ato set up with limewater,I'd probably go with 24/7 dosing when the vinegar is in the limewater provided it is fully saturated ,ie 2.09tsps per gallon with 12 ml on up to 2.72 tsps with 48ml. The kalk and slow dosing will help buffer the ph drop from the vinegar and the kalk is useful to help keep the ph higher at night when it usually drops as photosynthesis stops. At full saturation even with the vinegar the limewater should have aph of around 12.4.
 
OK. Thanks for the feedback on the kalk and dosing. I'm going to be starting this up today, so hopefully everything goes well. I think things are looking good in the tank right now and one bit of evidence for this is that my new Tunze powerheads already have a good deal of coraline and they've only been in the tank for about a month.
 
Thanks for the great thread. Just some advice. I have a 90 gallon reef tank, overstocked with fish. I run O3 (at about 375mv), dose with No3PO4-X but can't seem to drop my nitrates below 4. Could I start dosing with vinegar at 12ml per gallon with 2 tbsp of kalkwasser and add it twice a day in bolus form. I do not have a atu as I have no space.
What should I do about my NO3PO4-X.
Your help will be appreciated.
Carlos
 
Well heres my experience with biopellets. Im giving up on them. Ive tried running them for 6 months and no results. I have issues with nitrates I due have a bit of a fish load but do not over feed. Nitrates were about 40ppm and wouldnt come down. I have a 180 running 950ml of biopellets in a reefocto reactor. Was running gfo for the first 4 months and phosphates were at about .12 with hanna. Nothing was going down. So I heard maybe dosing some sugar may jump start them so I did that for a few weeks no luck there. this is after going throughtwo bottle of mac7 bacteria. No bump there either. Talked to the guys at BRS they said my nit and phos may be out of whack so do alot of water changes to get nitrates down abit and stop gfo so I did that ..nothing. Got nitrates down to maybe 20ppm doing daily WC's of 10% then let it run from there for a time and nothing....As you can see yes im a little frustrated. Should I try pulling the pellets and try dosing vinegar? I know Ive read a bunch of threads where pellets dont work for some people. Your thoughts
 
This is yet another interesting but expensive way to dose organic carbon. It's a series of pms back and forth about a situation at ABC Reefs.



Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by tmz
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by mr86mister
Hey Tom,
It's Mike from ABC Reefs and I could not think of another person to talk to about the crazy issue we just had at our shop today. Yesterday the business next door lost an entire wall of wines and spirits. This wall is on the other side of a wall in our store. There is no seal between the walls and our AC/Heating unit is near this divide. I walked into the store this morning and all of our open top aquariums had some sort of bacterial bloom. Only the open tops were the ones with this bloom(9 different systems). We ruled out many factors such as power outage, anything spilled into the aquariums, etc. We have no loss of life other than this bloom. Our skimmers are going nuts and the systems have developed a thin clearish coat of bacteria on the surfaces. The tank affected the most was the tank against this wall roughly 8 feet from the furnace unit. Could this been caused by the fumes of the alcohol?? The fumes were extremely strong last night and we thought nothing of it.

My take on it was the alcohol molecules(Whatever the exact chemical is) attached themselves to dust particles which then settled into our open top systems and caused this. I do know these exact things can happen with Vodka/Carbon dosing.

Just curious on your input. I may be thinking crazy but we can not think of anything else.

Thanks Much!
Mike

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Hi Mike,

If you can smell it ,the ethanol and ethanolic acid is in the air along with other organics from the wine and spirits and will will be in the water . It's a water loving molecule (hrdophylic) and miscible,i.e. diffuses throughout the water.
.
Welcome to organic carbon dosing.

Be sure to keep aeration up as the bacteria you are seeing use oxygen and then nitrate for O2..
Bet you find very clear water when all is said and done.
Watch any corals for signs of stress that may occur as a result of a rapid drop in PO4 and NO3 and/or increased lighting intensity from the clearer water.
You may also see a bit of hair algae once the bacteria run out of the organic carbon source and die off. So I'd be sure skimming was in good shape to remove them. A little gac wuldn't hurt either.

I never tried dosing that way. Maybe we should design a vapor doser and get a patent we could hook it to the skimmer input. Bet we could sell it if we made it out of shiny acrylic and included computerized monitoring applications and charged a lot . Some of the stuff sold in this hobby is much more far fetched. :lol2:

Thanks for sharing that story.
Do you mind if I post it in the organics thread?

Tom

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Thanks for the great thread. Just some advice. I have a 90 gallon reef tank, overstocked with fish. I run O3 (at about 375mv), dose with No3PO4-X but can't seem to drop my nitrates below 4. Could I start dosing with vinegar at 12ml per gallon with 2 tbsp of kalkwasser and add it twice a day in bolus form. I do not have a atu as I have no space.
What should I do about my NO3PO4-X.
Your help will be appreciated.
Carlos

I don't think kalk even when buffered with vinegar should be dosed in bulk. Some do that but I think it's too risky and causes instability in the alk, ph and calcium. BTW, you noted tbsps ; I think you meant tsps.

I've not used the NO3PO4-X and can't find out what's in it,so I really can't give you much on that.
 
I don't use the pellets because they' re polymers which require several bacterial breakdown steps including monomers which may be harmful to some corals.

The NO3 and PO4 need not be balanced as long as there is some of each in the water.You have plenty of them.

You could try vinegar or vodka and I personally, strongly prefer these soluble organics . It takes some time to give noticeable results in some cases when initial levels are high.
 
This is a post oif mine from another thread. Just thought I'd dross post it here for the inforamtion.

FWIW, I'm approaching year 5 of vodka and vinegar dosing. PO4 is consistently <.03ppm with NO3 consistently around 0.02 or a little less as best as I can read the test.
I discontinued the little gfo I had been using several weeks ago and the dosing is holding PO4 nicely without it.
I dose 26 ml and 64ml of vinegar daily to a 600 galloln tank. I now think the cyano issues are more start up issues related to changes in organics and nitrogen levels than specifically realted to ethanol vs vodka. I have not had any in a very long time.
At one point I was getting some small but annoying amounts stringy bacteria in the tank . It was easily blown off or siphoned . I changed the dosing point for half of the vodka and vinegar to a drain that empties into the bottom of a brute garbage can filled with very live rock( sponges, filter feeders, etc.). The bacteria seem to like it in there and no longer show up very much in other places.
 
I don't think kalk even when buffered with vinegar should be dosed in bulk. Some do that but I think it's too risky and causes instability in the alk, ph and calcium. BTW, you noted tbsps ; I think you meant tsps.

I've not used the NO3PO4-X and can't find out what's in it,so I really can't give you much on that.

Thanks Tom,
Stop dosing my NO3PO4-X and system seems very stable and my nitrates have dropped to 0.25ppm after they had been sitting at 4ppm for quite some time.
Will go out and buy a kalk stirrer today.
 
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