Walt's Official A. thiellei Page
- Thread starter WDLV
- Start date
WDLV
Skunk Hybrid Freak
Given the reactions I've seen and the idea of putting all my eggs in one basket, I'm really starting to think that it's a good idea. I need at least to keep this male/neuter as a male so that if I lose my male or female at some point, I have a backup of sorts.
I've also been looking at punnett squares and I would double my chance of success in proving my theory.
I've also been looking at punnett squares and I would double my chance of success in proving my theory.
AgentSPS
New member
Walt-
Glad to see my old buddy is adjusting well to its new settings. Sounds like they are all getting along great. Hard to imagine considering how aggressive he was with my other fish
Fingers are crossed to see if you can breed these guys. Would that be an industry first? Tank bread thiellei?
Glad to see my old buddy is adjusting well to its new settings. Sounds like they are all getting along great. Hard to imagine considering how aggressive he was with my other fish
Fingers are crossed to see if you can breed these guys. Would that be an industry first? Tank bread thiellei?
trueblackpercula
New member
very nice clowns....i have only seen this fish one time years ago and it sure was nice. I think i read some place that this clown is a hybrid is that true?
WDLV
Skunk Hybrid Freak
AgentSPS - He's still in quarantine next to a pair of ocellaris. I believe it would be a global first.
Trueblackpercula - It depends who you ask. Dr. Burgess thinks its a true species. Drs Fautin and Allen think its the same cross as A. Leucokranos. I think its an ocellaris/sandaracinos hybrid.
Trueblackpercula - It depends who you ask. Dr. Burgess thinks its a true species. Drs Fautin and Allen think its the same cross as A. Leucokranos. I think its an ocellaris/sandaracinos hybrid.
WDLV
Skunk Hybrid Freak
trueblackpercula
New member
well many years ago i meet the person it was named affter. He owns a nice store in new Jersey and he told me that it was a very rare clown. he also told me that no one could agree if it was a cross or not. Have tou been able to raise any fry yet as i would love to see how many look like the parents. If there is a small amout that do from a wild caught pair then i would have to say is a cross anx if they breed true then its not a cross. What are your thoughts about the fish?
I think either way there still Beautiful fish.
I think either way there still Beautiful fish.
WDLV
Skunk Hybrid Freak
I get this question a lot. This is an exerpt from my site. I don't think I'm allowed to post a link. The pictures won't show up in this quote but you get the idea.
A. thiellei
A. thiellei is "œreddish-orange with single relatively narrow white head bar; also small white saddle on top edge of tail base. Maximum length 65mm." (Fautin and Allen, Anemone Fish And Their Host Anemones 1994 edition p110)
My male and female are about 80mm and 90mm respectively.
Mike Thielle of Reef Encounter in NJ was the first person recorded to have possessed a pair of A. thiellei and is the gentleman for whom the species is named.
I have been in contact with Mike Thielle. He was kind enough to pass on to me the original description written up by Dr. Burgess and photos of his current specimens. One of which was among those pictured in my 1994 edition of Fautin and Allen's field guide. In case you're not doing the math, that means that this fish has been alive in captivity for 15+ years. Her mate has been with her since about 2006. He said that he's seen twenty or so come through his store through the years. I presume he meant since 1981; though it was first reported to Dr. Burgess in 1979. Many were DOA, which provided the carcasses with which Dr. Burgess made his original description.
The following five pictures are of Mike Thielle's stock.
Photo: Aaron Norman
Used With Permission
Photos: Mike Thielle
Used with permission
Photos: Aaron Norman
Used With Permission
As far as I can tell, Matias Gomes of Portugal was the second person to have acquired a pair. According to Matias, a friend of his had collected the specimens, having imported them one at a time in his coat pocket. Tragically, Matias lost his specimens along with 80% of his coral farm after a malfunction with a protein skimmer wiped out the system they were in.
The following pictures are of Matias' thiellei clowns.
Photo: Antonio Amaral
Used With Permission
Photo: Antonio Amaral
Used With Permission
Photo: Antonio Amaral
Used With Permission
The first two thielleis that I acquired were obtained from two different retailers on opposite US coasts. Both cited the collector as having shipped from Cebu, Philippines. If they were collected close to the shipping point, this would be consistent with the range suggested in Fautin and Allen's field guide.
These are the two specamins I'm currently keeping. The photo was taken shortly after the quarrantine of the second fish. I have a third A. thiellei that was acquired in March 2011. These fish have become my primary focus.
Photo: WDLV
Photo: WDLV
It has been rumored that experts such as Drs. Fautin and Allen believe that A. thiellei may be a hybrid. I have confirmed with Dr. Fautin that it is her belief that A. thiellei is a hybrid cross of A. sandaracinos and A. chrysopterus; which is the same hybrid cross as A. leucokranos. This is to say that she believes that they are the same fish.
Per a discussion with Mike Thielle, I was informed that Dr. Burgess does not share this view.
So, of the two gentlemen that I consider to be the foremost experts on anemonefish (Dr Allen and Dr. Burgess) there is no consensus as to whether they are a true species or a natural hybrid.
I've spoken with two members on rareclownfish.com who have A. thiellei individuals. One is a classic example, the other is a bit less cut and dry. Both individuals cite their source as being from the Philippine Islands. One is specifically from Cebu.
I have neither the room the time, nor the breeding experience to try multiple mixed pairs in hopes of getting a confirmation of the parent species, but I would love to know about it if others are able to do so.
My second thiellei was obtained in July 2009. I paired the two in August. Hopefully in a year or so I will get some babies to do a visual comparison of the offspring.
Some might say A. thiellei's status as a species is "œprovisional." Either way, I find this "œspecies" fascinating. Whether it retains it's species status over time, becomes known as the Thielle hybrid or becomes recognized as a new and developing species within the Amphiprion genus seems immaterial.
I for one believe that this fish is an A. sandaracinos-ocellaris hybrid but I also believe that this hybrid provides an insight to how new species are created within the genus.
More research is needed.
A. thiellei -vs- A. leucokranos
It is the belief of some experts that A. thiellei and A. leucokranos are sandaracinos/chrysopterus hybrids. Based on body plan, coloration and markings I agree that the thiellei "species" is probably a hybrid. I also believe that there is sufficient evidence to support that A. leucokranos is a hybrid. This is based on accounts from multiple individuals in both the scientific community and the hobbyist community. However, I do not feel that thiellei is a hybrid of the exact same origin.
I must preface the following statement in saying that I by no means would have the audacity to call myself an expert in Anemonefish but would venture to say that I have probably studdied these fish more than most marine aquarists. While I agree that there is strong evidence to support that A. leucokranos is a cross of A. sandaracinos and A. chrysopterus, I theorize that if A. thiellei is a hybrid that it is likely a cross between A. sandaracinos and A. ocellaris. This is based on region of collection, body coloration, eye coloration, bar shape, bar border contrast and location as well as general body plan.
Specifically, while A. thiellei has a sort of burnt orange coloration, A. leucokranos tends to present more of a yellow to light brown coloration.
Thiellei always seems to have more contrast in its barring. Particularly with regard to the saddle-like marking at its caudal peduncle (tail base.) A. leucokranos tends to have a fading border on some of its markings particularly the saddle at the caudal peduncle... when present.
A. leucokranos tends to have a body plan resembling A. chrysopterus. It is thicker from its anterior to dorsal aspect giving it a more stocky appearance. A. thiellei has a body plan that is more long and slender. Its body plan is almost exactly like A. ocellaris.
While I am aware that there were other parent species candidates that reside in the Philippines, they either lacked similar base coloration, barring or barring contrast or else they were too far off from the body plan that is seen in A. thiellei. A. thiellei is not found with a mid-bar or a full tail bar but rather follows the pattern of the sandaracinos dorsal stripe and the head bar that ocellaris would have as a juvenile. The dorsal stripe may occur thicker in areas where an ocellaris bar would occur with particular regard to the tail bar.
The closest runners up were A. percula and A. perideraion. I discounted A. percula because of its propensity toward barring outside its normal borders and a tendency to have very large fading black borders surrounding its bars. There is a conspicuous lack of these traits in all documented specimens of A. thiellei. I discounted A. perideraion because of its coloration and body plan. Pink coloration is never seen in A. thiellei.
Size matters... A. thiellei is the smallest of any anemonefish species ever described. I don't know enough about genetics to rule out a dwarfing trait that might surface but I think it stands to reason that the smallest species described is less likely to come from a fairly large parent (A. sandaracinos) and one that takes the record for the largest anemonefish species (A. chrysopterus.)
Tail coloration... I gave consideration to the variants of A. chrysopterus. There are yellow and white tail variants of A. chrysopterus, which may account for the different appearance between the two hybrids. Some regions have chrysopterus displaying white tails while others have the variant with yellow tails.
Another interesting possibility posed by my friend Daniel Pauletti is that the body plan of the offspring could be contingent on which of the parents was dominant. He made the comparison to mules' body plans depending on the parent donkey and horse genders. If this is the case, it seems logical that in most cases the chrysopterus would be the dominant (female) parent because they are larger and faster growing by nature. A dominant sandaracinos would be the exception to the rule and would dominate the body plan and coloration. I think this is a good theory, but I tend to discount it because A. thiellei has a deeper orange than any sandaracinos I have ever seen.
WDLV
Skunk Hybrid Freak
I was doing a little Wilkerson reading a week or so ago and realized I've never really tried to describe the behavior of these fish.
They are very similar to the way Joyce Wilkerson described A. ocellaris in that they are not particularly good swimmers and tend to cling to the shelter of their anemone even during feeding time. That is to say that they have the same up and down swimming pattern when they hover in open water. When feeding they will only grab morsels that allow them to jut out and grab them while still keeping their tails in the anemone. This is just another piece of the puzzle as to why I think they have ocellaris blood in them. That said, i was consulting with a couple friends who have been in the clown breeding business about the above mentioned "love bites" and one of them said he had never seen that sort of behavior with "good pairs" but that his experience with the skunk complex was not as vast as his experience with other complexes. I know I have a good pair because I've had bad matches before and these definately do not fit that category.
So, I got to thinking; they can be rather aggressive as compared to A. ocellaris but they're not as skittish as a lot of skunks either. They will let me watch them without scurrying into hiding. They really are a great "species." I've said it before, I'm happy to have them as pets even if they never spawn.
They are very similar to the way Joyce Wilkerson described A. ocellaris in that they are not particularly good swimmers and tend to cling to the shelter of their anemone even during feeding time. That is to say that they have the same up and down swimming pattern when they hover in open water. When feeding they will only grab morsels that allow them to jut out and grab them while still keeping their tails in the anemone. This is just another piece of the puzzle as to why I think they have ocellaris blood in them. That said, i was consulting with a couple friends who have been in the clown breeding business about the above mentioned "love bites" and one of them said he had never seen that sort of behavior with "good pairs" but that his experience with the skunk complex was not as vast as his experience with other complexes. I know I have a good pair because I've had bad matches before and these definately do not fit that category.
So, I got to thinking; they can be rather aggressive as compared to A. ocellaris but they're not as skittish as a lot of skunks either. They will let me watch them without scurrying into hiding. They really are a great "species." I've said it before, I'm happy to have them as pets even if they never spawn.
WDLV
Skunk Hybrid Freak
Bad News
Bad News
Friday I got back from a week-long tech school in NC and came back to an overflowing skimmer (like all skimmate was back in the tank) and a layer of red slime on the glass thick enough to make it opaque. I wiped away the slime coat and replaced a couple ball valves on the skimmer with gate valves. I had wanted to replace these before I left but I have a self imposed policy of not making any changes to the system immediately preceeding a trip away from home.
Saturday I went to feed the fish and saw that the male didn't pass the DLR test and also had a small slimy patch on his left side near his tail. I did a water change then drove up to That Fish Place in PA to get some Formalin III as this is the only semi-LFS I knew carried it. It would appear that they no longer carry it GRRRRRRR!!!!! I picked up two different meds. One with malachite green and formalin and another "aldehyde based" product.
Sunday morning at feeding the male was no longer eating and had some stringy looking stuff hanging around his mouth. The female was eating but didn't pass the DLR test. I set up a 10 gallon, caught both fish and lowered the SG down to 1.009 then spent the rest of the day doing Easter stuff. I didn't use the meds because I knew I'd be away all day Sunday and didn't want to dose anything until I had a pretty good idea about what to expect and would be able to make corrective measures if necessary.
This AM both fish passed the DLR test and were eating with gusto.
So much for any chance of spawning but at least they're looking better.
Bad News
Friday I got back from a week-long tech school in NC and came back to an overflowing skimmer (like all skimmate was back in the tank) and a layer of red slime on the glass thick enough to make it opaque. I wiped away the slime coat and replaced a couple ball valves on the skimmer with gate valves. I had wanted to replace these before I left but I have a self imposed policy of not making any changes to the system immediately preceeding a trip away from home.
Saturday I went to feed the fish and saw that the male didn't pass the DLR test and also had a small slimy patch on his left side near his tail. I did a water change then drove up to That Fish Place in PA to get some Formalin III as this is the only semi-LFS I knew carried it. It would appear that they no longer carry it GRRRRRRR!!!!! I picked up two different meds. One with malachite green and formalin and another "aldehyde based" product.
Sunday morning at feeding the male was no longer eating and had some stringy looking stuff hanging around his mouth. The female was eating but didn't pass the DLR test. I set up a 10 gallon, caught both fish and lowered the SG down to 1.009 then spent the rest of the day doing Easter stuff. I didn't use the meds because I knew I'd be away all day Sunday and didn't want to dose anything until I had a pretty good idea about what to expect and would be able to make corrective measures if necessary.
This AM both fish passed the DLR test and were eating with gusto.
So much for any chance of spawning but at least they're looking better.
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WDLV
Skunk Hybrid Freak
I can't really say LOL to that but I did crack a smile. I too am relieved that there has been an improvement.
deangelr
Clown Whisperererer
Walt,
If original descriptions of Thiellei are from aquarium specimens then how can it be said that this is the smallest species of clown? wouldn't this not really be known?
Just cause your theillei's look larger then what I expect the smallest fish to be.. Which I always believed to be A. percula.
If original descriptions of Thiellei are from aquarium specimens then how can it be said that this is the smallest species of clown? wouldn't this not really be known?
Just cause your theillei's look larger then what I expect the smallest fish to be.. Which I always believed to be A. percula.
WDLV
Skunk Hybrid Freak
If I were Dr. Burgess, I could argue for or against your query. That said, the description was done based on a number of specamins (both living and dead) that had been brought to Dr. Burgess' attention. Because there are so few available for study, I would imagine that there should be some margin of error.
Given that I am in disagreement with Dr. Fautin and Dr. Allen about the origin of this fish I will defend my remark by stating that they are operating on the hard evidence before them, part of which is Dr. Burgess' original description. I am operating on the hard evidence before me (which is currently three live specimens and photographs submitted by other hobbyists), the field guide written by Fautin and Allen and the original description written up by Dr. Burgess. I have simply come to a different theoretical conclusion.
The main difference between what they (Fautin and Allen) are using as evidence and what I am using as evidence is that Dr. Allen has numerous encounters with all sorts of reef organisms and has seen things in the field that have probably influenced his theory. This is an advantage that I do not have and I cannot even imagine what those factors might be.
I have contacted some of the same sources that Dr. Allen had been contact with and read whatever literature I could get my hands on as well as having observed these specimens in captivity for literally years at this point which is an advantage that Dr. Allen does not have.
Dr. Allen is also way more educated and experienced in Marine Biology than I am. This is an advantage as well as a disadvantage. I say disadvantage because I have had years to sit and study this one "species" whereas he has had his time much more divided and focused in other areas.
Given that I am in disagreement with Dr. Fautin and Dr. Allen about the origin of this fish I will defend my remark by stating that they are operating on the hard evidence before them, part of which is Dr. Burgess' original description. I am operating on the hard evidence before me (which is currently three live specimens and photographs submitted by other hobbyists), the field guide written by Fautin and Allen and the original description written up by Dr. Burgess. I have simply come to a different theoretical conclusion.
The main difference between what they (Fautin and Allen) are using as evidence and what I am using as evidence is that Dr. Allen has numerous encounters with all sorts of reef organisms and has seen things in the field that have probably influenced his theory. This is an advantage that I do not have and I cannot even imagine what those factors might be.
I have contacted some of the same sources that Dr. Allen had been contact with and read whatever literature I could get my hands on as well as having observed these specimens in captivity for literally years at this point which is an advantage that Dr. Allen does not have.
Dr. Allen is also way more educated and experienced in Marine Biology than I am. This is an advantage as well as a disadvantage. I say disadvantage because I have had years to sit and study this one "species" whereas he has had his time much more divided and focused in other areas.
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