Walt's Official A. thiellei Page

DNA testing is implausible because there is apparently a lot of crossing in the skunk lines. I can't verify that but it is what I was told. Also, I do know of one source who was breeding A. sandaracinos in a tank with a pair of marroons and said the male marroon came over to fertilize some of the Female A. sandaracinos' eggs. He had two out of the batch that were similar to A. thiellei/leucokranos. I could never get better shots than what he originally took to determine if they were more consistent with thiellei or leucokranos. I have seen other skunk hybrids. One that may have been a sandaracinos/frenatus cross. So they are rather permiscuous.
 
its not that hard to do DNA on them. My uncle did some DNA testing on a guppies called endlers and I no it was done also on devils hole pupfish as well. You really have a rare pair of fish and you should record all that you can. I think the first step ris rasing fry and seeing what turns up.
 
Its not like I haven't inquired. I have a good friend who runs a genetics lab for Johns Hopkins University. When she tells me its pointless without known genetic markers of all suspected parent species and that its cost prohibitive, I'm taking her at her word. I will not dispose of them even if they die. I will preserve them in alcohol and have invited others to do the same if they'll send me the cadavers.
 
WDLV said:
Its not like I haven't inquired. I have a good friend who runs a genetics lab for Johns Hopkins University. When she tells me its pointless without known genetic markers of all suspected parent species and that its cost prohibitive, I'm taking her at her word. I will not dispose of them even if they die. I will preserve them in alcohol and have invited others to do the same if they'll send me the cadavers.
Click to expand...

Alcohol?
 
Formaldehyde destroys the tissue for DNA analysis. Alcohol preserves the tissues so they can be analyzed later.
 
I picked up a sandaracinos clown yesterday. It's in quarrantine adjacent to my newest A. thiellei so they are in full view of each other. Anyone know why skunks are labeled as being harder to breed? Is it difficulty in getting them to spawn, egg/fry size, time to meta or something else?
 
Lookin' good so far. They swim close to each other (with the panes of glass separating) but do not seem to be trying to attack each other. The sandaracinos is significantly smaller than the thiellei. So, once they are added together, it should be a quick contest if any as to whom will be dominant.
 
WDLV said:
I picked up a sandaracinos clown yesterday. It's in quarrantine adjacent to my newest A. thiellei so they are in full view of each other. Anyone know why skunks are labeled as being harder to breed? Is it difficulty in getting them to spawn, egg/fry size, time to meta or something else?
Click to expand...

Well let me give you my experience.....

My GSM female has drawn blood on my hand when carelessly searching for eggs and pushes by feeding baster out of their cave entrance when you get within 3" of that entrance.

My Frenatus female is full of pi$$ and vinegar and is the the most foul clown I have owned. She constantly is firing attachs at my hand when rearranging LR in the SPS DT and constantly is tossing frags about. (She's lucky her complex is my favorite or she would be put in solitary in the new cryptic zone:lmao:)

The Onyx & Ocellaris I use to own would retreat, but were filled with attitude once the spawning started.

Off all the above species, the pink skunks I used to own were by far the most timid. They cowered in the corner and in caves whenever your hand went in the tank, fed with the feeding baster or came within 10' of the tank. Now I have seen a school of some 6 pink skunks in a display at ThatFishPlace that seemed to swim constantly in open water. You probably know the tank I'm talking about. It's the rimless tank in the front of the store with the LED setup that has the pinkish hue. Right behind register 6 or 7...?(Been about 5 months since I was last back in PA, so I'm unsure of the No.) They may have been on alert b/c of the numerous individuals int he same tank, but I cannot be sure. My skunks never materialized eggs and I finally decided that my suit for my unicorn fish was more valuable than trying to raise a species that is not highly desired. (That's not to say my $1/pc tomato blowout a couple years back was not a complete waste of time and resources either).

So, I would say if your fish are not too timid to begin with you should be one steo ahead of the game. From what I have read and experienced, anyone that can spawn these guys in less than 60+gal in a high traffic area is not the 'norm'.

Probably not real informative for what you were looking for Walt, but thought I would offer up what my experience was.
 
Thanks Frank.
My pink skunks had to be removed from my 210 because they were kicking the crap out of my latezonatus clowns, which were twice their size! That said, I think the saddleback complex are among the most docile... next to percula complex. I'd put tomato complex right below marroon for most aggressive, though I think clarkiis are a bit of a tie.

I'm not sure aggression has anything to do with it really though??? Any reason that you think it would matter in a dedicated tank?
 
Sorry Walt,

Yesterday's post sounded like a crescendo in my head, but fizzled to a popcorn f@rt when i reread the post.

What I was was trying to gather is a combination of aggression and a feeling of security that results in minimal to zero stress in our wet buddies. What I have experienced is GSM and Tomato's seem to have enough boldness and security that the big head (me) they often see peering in their domain doesn't bother them enough to not perform their natural activities (spawning). I have a LFS that has a spawning pair of Clarkii's in their LR tank. People sort through the LR and this constant movement of rock and constant traffic has not stopped them from spawning for at least the last 2 years. They don't go much further than 6" from their anemone that is wedged between two pieces of rock, but they seem to be happy.

Even in a dedicated tank, the stress induced by cleanings and any movement of rock can result in a spooked pair of clowns. This added stress can cease spawning or result in sporadic spawnings at best.

The point I'm getting at is I believe some species complexes (skunk and saddleback) are very skiddish and this results in the added stress that shuts down spawning. A good example is when the RC'er from Noblesville, IN (cannot remember his screen name to save my life) had his Latz spawn when they were in a low traffic area and he left that tank do it's own thing. He finally had a spawning event, so maybe this is a loose example of my above statements.

I think regardless of the complex, ALL clowns are skiddish to a point. The 'fight-or-flight' fence is a tricky area to determine for each fish's personality and species complex. I think some complexes fight until they are about to fall off the fence and then jump hoping the parachute will save them. My example of this would be when I have in the passed flicked my Tomato female's mouth when she was biting. She turned and charged several times, but the flick on the lips caused her to scoot into the pairs cave. That flick was the flight trigger. When I would walk within 10' of the Pink Skunk pair that was their flight trigger. So, if they were constantly on the fence of fight or flight they would likely not spawn. That's not to say I might have bought some juvies that were runts and were picked on so in adulthood they may have become much more sensitive.

Hopefully this post is a little more clear on my hypothesis (with no scientific backing) snowballed from various readings (Joyce's experience and various posts) and what I experienced first hand. Let me know if this is still clear as mud or murky water now.
 
So, given that the anemones in this system are doing really shoddy, it is going to be a coral/anemone-free system. I do plan on emptying out the sump which does still have LR and some coral still in it and scrubbing it out and attaching another 30-40 breeder tank to the sump for the thiellei/sandaracinos (soon to be pair.)
I'm debating whether to add baserock to the sump for biofiltration.

I'm also going to set up a 2.5 gallon pico tank at work with my few remaining corals to fulfill that urge. I recently set up an identical system for a friend and it's working wonderfully.
 
WDLV said:
So, given that the anemones in this system are doing really shoddy, it is going to be a coral/anemone-free system.
Click to expand...

I have to ask why you believe these anemones are doing poorly....?:worried2:

I have a GBTA in my nano that get's weekly feedings under LED lighting. I have not been on top of the majano and aiptasia and currently have an outbreak. There is a ring of these nasties beginning to form around this GBTA and it still appears happy as a lark. I haven't done a water change in about 3 weeks and have not tested anything in 4 months. It's basically running on auto-pilot with an ATO.

So I have to ask what is the current problem your experiencing: water chemistry, newer tank syndrome, insufficient lighting, not enough structure to securely seat a foot, etc?

It seems odd that a tank I'm running in auto-pilot with almost no attention since I sold the Occy pair is still capable of sustaining a BTA and your struggling.

Have any ideas what is going on?

As for baserock in the sump, I'm a believer of 'more is not enough' when it comes to LS, LR & vegetation.

Just My $0.02....
 
Full disclosure.

1. The tentacles of the two remaining anemones (others melted) are about 4mm long.
2. Anemones do not/cannot eat.
3. No crevaces to bury their feet.
4. Red slime algae is prevalent and new tank syndrome is plausible given all the changes that have occured in the last couple months.
a. Feedings are heavy.
b. Skimmer is not properly tuned.
c. No filter sock or other mechanical filtration.
d. I'm unable to access the sump floor for proper bottom cleaning.

So, I wish to revamp the system to address some of these issues. if I put baserock in the sump, it will be in a milk carton(s) so it can be removed for sump maintenance.
 
Sorry to hear about the string of bad luck....
I often have the 'bleach, polyp discharge, tissue sluffing off' experience with new SPS.....:debi:

I can feel for your situation of many variables and nothing will result in a quick turn aroudn before the demise of the corals.

Do you think the melting of the anemones may have introduced some nasty gastric juices and this is causing the demise? Are you running GAC to prevent further chemical combat? Just pitching out my last ditch thoughts on the matter.

Best of luck with the remaining two! If they don't eat, there is very little you can do past continually trying.

During my next split maybe we can arrange to see if one of my bullet-proof GBTA/RBTA will survive your setup. They almost have compelled me to state BTA are easier to care for than zoas, shrooms and maxi-mini's...BUT I know that is not the case.
 
I'm gonna set up another tank eventually that is more coral focused. Right now my focus is on these clowns... to the detriment of my anemones. Corals are being treated like crap sitting in the sump and are doing great. I don't get it unless the corals are poisoning the nems. Heck, the light could be too much/too little but I doubt that.

Yes - I am running GAC.
 
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