Would you please take the time to actually read (and understand) what I wrote! I did not say that money could not be made by offering a soup-to-nuts controller, simply that the installed base of Apex controllers is a potential barrier to entry and that I prefer the 'a la carte' approach that Neptune takes. I'm not sure you necessarily appreciate how relatively small the addressable market is for these things. Although I obviously don't know for sure, I also said in a prior post that I'd imagine ETM has done a business plan for a controller and that they have not released one speaks volumes. Maybe they will next month, and we will see; but I doubt it.
We need a new Controller Ecotech Please Save Us!
- Thread starter bower23
- Start date
Would you please take the time to actually read (and understand) what I wrote! I did not say that money could not be made by offering a soup-to-nuts controller, simply that the installed base of Apex controllers is a potential barrier to entry and that I prefer the 'a la carte' approach that Neptune takes. I'm not sure you necessarily appreciate how relatively small the addressable market is for these things. Although I obviously don't know for sure, I also said in a prior post that I'd imagine ETM has done a business plan for a controller and that they have not released one speaks volumes. Maybe they will next month, and we will see; but I doubt it.
oseymour
Euphyllia Addict
I like the 'a la carte' approach of Apex because I only end up purchasing the features I need. If I ended up needing a full featured unit over time I understand that it will cost me more. I started with a base unit and I've added more modules as I upgraded my tank.
I see that the OP has had a bad experience but I have an Apex and i have friends with Apex and we have not had any issues with it. I've seen salt creep on the unit and it's still humming along. These things are built to last.
I agree that you have to be a bit of a geek to get it up and running but once I did it's been running ever since.
I see that the OP has had a bad experience but I have an Apex and i have friends with Apex and we have not had any issues with it. I've seen salt creep on the unit and it's still humming along. These things are built to last.
I agree that you have to be a bit of a geek to get it up and running but once I did it's been running ever since.
bower23
New member
"I have always found the perspective that companies shouldn't turn a profit ironic"
Sounded to me that you implied I meant for them to not make a profit. And if I misunderstood what you meant, maybe you should have written it differently. Whatever, I have more important things to do than to argue. I was trying to help the hobby with an idea. I'll leave you to your "what skimmer is best" conversations.
Part of the issue with an "all-in-one" unit is that while it could be made to be compatible with all the major players of today, it could become obsolete very quickly with the development of new technology. By utilizing modules, Neptune is making their products so that they can grow into future technology without being forced to scrap their current product.
Just imagine all the frustrated owners of older Apex units if they had to go out and buy a brand new unit because they wanted to upgrade to control modern lights, but their old unit couldn't be updated. The current solution allows for cost effective upgrades.
I agree that an all-in-one solution would be nice, but I also think that it would end up falling short due to the constant advance of technology.
Just imagine all the frustrated owners of older Apex units if they had to go out and buy a brand new unit because they wanted to upgrade to control modern lights, but their old unit couldn't be updated. The current solution allows for cost effective upgrades.
I agree that an all-in-one solution would be nice, but I also think that it would end up falling short due to the constant advance of technology.
bower23
New member
Yep and I never meant that there isn't a place for Apex and they should close shop. I just meant I would like to see another player in the market and with a different approach. Personally I would like it all built in but that is just me.
bower23
New member
The only reason this would be true is if all the new equipment starting using different connections. I haven't seen a different connection for PH, ORP, or Salinity. And the other equipment that would connect wireless. So only the software would need updated. The modules are only for a minor cost savings if you don't want them and a major profit increase if you do. The technology if bought today would probably outlive most peoples tanks and time in the hobby. Again, if done correctly.
This is pretty amusing. There is absolutely no way at all that a company could make a reasonable profit on an overall product line in the controller market at $600 let alone any less than that and include everything that the OP is asking for. Yes it is correct that it only costs $3 to add this connector or that connector to an all in one style of unit. However, what you are not taking into consideration is the programming and integrated hardware necessary to make that $3 socket do what it is designed to do. As mentioned in another post, this market is too small and the shear number of units that would need to be sold to make this endeavor worthwhile would be massive. It is nowhere near as simple as it may seem. I am a beta tester for a handful of different electronics companies and it can be mind numbing how much effort goes into even the simplest of things. That effort on the part of programmers costs lots of money. I would guess that even if this magical all in one $550 controller would make it to market, at least 75% of the current owners of controllers would not buy it. Why would we when we are happy with what we have?
bower23
New member
If it's so hard then the current system wouldn't exist. All these things are already being programed into separate modules. It's all there already just needs to be put together into a better package.
bower23
New member
Ok it's obvious this thread is not going to go anywhere. Everyone is too busy to say why this will not work. I've been through innovation training as a product designer to think outside the box and I guess the general public is so confined into there known space anything outside that space is ridiculous. It's funny that not one of the reasons why not even make any logical sense. Oh it will be too hard and cost too much and no one would buy it. I'm sure they said that about the first iPhone or the first laptop. A wireless controlled LED light would have been crazy talk 10 years ago. Oh boy I want a controller with built in wireless and the correct ports, I must be on drugs or live in crazy town. Again, it's a known fact in the design community that people will defend a product they own just to justify their decision even if it's wrong. We see it in test groups all the time. Oh well, I tried.
At least two folks, myself included, stated that a 'modular' approach is our preferred approach. That seems quite 'logical' to me, to pay for those features you want rather than be stuck with things you don't need in an all-in-one.
Coelli
New member
Why do I want to subsidize the cost of development to support products I don't own?
My lights are Kessils that use a standard cable connected to the VDM port on my Apex. I added an additional VDM module for more ports to connect a DIY cable to control my pumps. I added a Breakout Box for float switches (and potentially may add switches to the BOB to turn lights on and off when I open cabinet doors). I added a Leak Detection module and two sensors.
Again, why would I want to subsidize the cost of development for a bunch of products and brands I don't own, in your hypothetical controller? Those costs would be folded into the cost of the controller.
What happens when I want to add more switches and other equipment than the controller supports? Do I have to buy an expansion (module) or am I SOL?
Please stop flinging around aspersions that we're all stupid and only you can think outside of the box. The people here, who actually use the hardware, have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. There are many things that are not and never will be wireless capable (e.g. float switches). So you're either going to run out of ports, or you're going to need to buy... gasp... Modules!
My lights are Kessils that use a standard cable connected to the VDM port on my Apex. I added an additional VDM module for more ports to connect a DIY cable to control my pumps. I added a Breakout Box for float switches (and potentially may add switches to the BOB to turn lights on and off when I open cabinet doors). I added a Leak Detection module and two sensors.
Again, why would I want to subsidize the cost of development for a bunch of products and brands I don't own, in your hypothetical controller? Those costs would be folded into the cost of the controller.
What happens when I want to add more switches and other equipment than the controller supports? Do I have to buy an expansion (module) or am I SOL?
Please stop flinging around aspersions that we're all stupid and only you can think outside of the box. The people here, who actually use the hardware, have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. There are many things that are not and never will be wireless capable (e.g. float switches). So you're either going to run out of ports, or you're going to need to buy... gasp... Modules!
Hey, I have an idea...Since everybody is too busy telling you why this won't work, and you are the only one that is forward thinking and "out of the box" thinking, why don't you design, build and market this all in one $550 controller? I will volunteer to beta test it for free, just to help out on the R&D cost, and I will happily buy the first one. You didn't get the responses that you thought you would or that agree with your opinion so you lash out against all of us. That makes no sense. I would like to think that a lot of us are pretty smart guys and we have made choices in what we buy based on good research. I chose to buy the controller I have specifically because of how it is designed, which is very modular. The money that I paid for a particular module helped pay for that module. Someone else that hasn't purchased that same module isn't wasting their money on features that they don't want or need. Makes perfect sense to me and the literally 1000's of customers that have made the same purchase.
bower23
New member
Again I said for all of you that are happy with the current stuff fine. I'm not suggesting Neptune close it's doors and push all it's products off the dock. I'm just asking for another option.
bower23
New member
So do you have a phone? Do you use all the apps on your phone? Why aren't you mad that you had to pay for the development of those apps that you don't use? And yes there will be people that they will need to add more 'modules' or extensions as one size does not fit all but the one size now fits no one. Standard controller only has 8 outlets. Find me one tank that is not a nano that fits? Most other people need more outlets than that. And no not everyone is stupid but no one else would like this??? Really??? I find that extremely hard to believe. And I addressed float switches as the controller would need built in outlets for.. such things as float switches.
Tang Salad
Algae skeptic
Let's be fair here: you're not really looking for logical sense. You're looking for cheerleaders for your "outside the box" idea.
Take a look at all the posts in just the past week of people having problems programming their controllers and lights, or getting two lights to work together or wirelessly connect. These are with products that have already been on the market literally for years, and made by companies like AI and Ecotech! And they still don't have the kinks worked out.
Yet in your estimation, integration and networking challenges like these can all be overcome with a "simple software update". That's absurd.
If you spend too much time thinking outside the box, then the box goes out of its way to make you look dumb whenever you poke your head back in with a new idea.
bower23
New member
Yes thousands of customers have made the same purchase because they have no choice, that is the point. And yes this is ****ing me off because NO ONE took the spirit of this thread as a 'what if or what would you like to see' as I stated. No they just posted negative comments that does no one any good. I suggested something new and everyone got defensive of their own product. I guess I should have expected as much. I'm on a lot of forums and this one has always been helpful and polite. But now I'm not so sure. I tried to contribute an idea that would help many reefers like me. But no, everyone just wants to bash the idea. I can't believe everyone would rather have 6 different modules with wires going everywhere, possible problems with connections between each module, taking up space in a small area, more costs per each module, no wireless function without going to walmart to buy an adapter,... really? That's what you like? That's fine but I expect better.
itzonlithai
New member
Seems like you want more for the same price. More outlets. Wireless built-in (reasonable). Support for all of the different light/pump setups. Breakout box. pH/ORP/temp/Salinity ports.
I can see how paying $500+ for a controller and then needing to add modules to get all the functionality that you want is expensive, but the market has already established that it is willing to pay the price. It's not about how much it costs for R&D and production, it's what the people are willing to pay for your product. Even if Apex (or anyone else) is able to produce exactly what you want and still turn a profit, they'd just price it at a premium for the added features. What you're asking for is for a company to produce a superior product and price it at a price that is lower than what the market is willing to pay. Essentially you want more for less.
Also, modularity is not necessarily a bad thing, especially in the aquarium industry. It sucks to have to buy all these add-on's to get the functionality you want, but there are just too many different proprietary connections to have it all in one base unit. Take lighting for example. The main players in LED are AI, Ecotech, and Kessil. All of which have their own wireless protocol (Kessil AP700 is wireless I believe, but the A360WE's use an analog signal via 3.5mm cable).
What happens when these need to be updated on the software side? You say it's a simple upgrade, but juggling all of the bug fixes and updates for just these three fixtures is very difficult and time consuming for a single company. On top of that, I'm assuming you'll be using a phone/tablet/browser, then you'll have to update all the separate devices in different software languages for all of the different software versions (iOS 7 vs iOS 8, Jelly bean vs Ice cream sandwich, Chrome vs Firefox vs Safari). It's not that easy.
What about the Chinese fixtures that MANY people use? Or the smaller, but quality companies like Nano Box? What if a new player comes into the LED game and gains popularity, say if Jebao released a light. If only there was a way to accommodate all this diversity and not have the consumer pay for all the connections/features they want or do not want.
Sorry to pile it on, but you do bring up some good points and this is how innovation starts. I just don't think you've thought it through all the way. A more reasonable approach for Neptune is to update (not overhaul) their current controller with built in wireless and maybe have some more ports built into the base unit. This is basically the Digital Aquatics Archon controller and (correct me if I'm wrong) it's not doing well.
I can see how paying $500+ for a controller and then needing to add modules to get all the functionality that you want is expensive, but the market has already established that it is willing to pay the price. It's not about how much it costs for R&D and production, it's what the people are willing to pay for your product. Even if Apex (or anyone else) is able to produce exactly what you want and still turn a profit, they'd just price it at a premium for the added features. What you're asking for is for a company to produce a superior product and price it at a price that is lower than what the market is willing to pay. Essentially you want more for less.
Also, modularity is not necessarily a bad thing, especially in the aquarium industry. It sucks to have to buy all these add-on's to get the functionality you want, but there are just too many different proprietary connections to have it all in one base unit. Take lighting for example. The main players in LED are AI, Ecotech, and Kessil. All of which have their own wireless protocol (Kessil AP700 is wireless I believe, but the A360WE's use an analog signal via 3.5mm cable).
What happens when these need to be updated on the software side? You say it's a simple upgrade, but juggling all of the bug fixes and updates for just these three fixtures is very difficult and time consuming for a single company. On top of that, I'm assuming you'll be using a phone/tablet/browser, then you'll have to update all the separate devices in different software languages for all of the different software versions (iOS 7 vs iOS 8, Jelly bean vs Ice cream sandwich, Chrome vs Firefox vs Safari). It's not that easy.
What about the Chinese fixtures that MANY people use? Or the smaller, but quality companies like Nano Box? What if a new player comes into the LED game and gains popularity, say if Jebao released a light. If only there was a way to accommodate all this diversity and not have the consumer pay for all the connections/features they want or do not want.
Sorry to pile it on, but you do bring up some good points and this is how innovation starts. I just don't think you've thought it through all the way. A more reasonable approach for Neptune is to update (not overhaul) their current controller with built in wireless and maybe have some more ports built into the base unit. This is basically the Digital Aquatics Archon controller and (correct me if I'm wrong) it's not doing well.
Coelli
New member
Yes, but how many switches will it support? Is it infinitely expandable?
My tank (not a nano) has a return, skimmer, two LED lights, circulation pump, fuge light, and ATO. I still have outlets open on my EB8. Reactors are run off a manifold. I don't want to pay for extra outlets I'll never use. If I need more, I can pick up an EB4 or EB8.
My tank (not a nano) has a return, skimmer, two LED lights, circulation pump, fuge light, and ATO. I still have outlets open on my EB8. Reactors are run off a manifold. I don't want to pay for extra outlets I'll never use. If I need more, I can pick up an EB4 or EB8.
bower23
New member
Hey look, first off don't call me dumb. Yes there will always be problems with any company but if you had the right people working a software update can correct the problems. That's why they have software updates.. because it fixes problems. So it's not absurd. Go stick your head back in a box.
bower23
New member
The money thing was never a huge point. Yes I would like to see it around $500 but if it's $700 because that is what the market will pay, then so be it. As long as it's a superior product. And the reason for suggesting Ecotech for the job is they would make sure their product communicates with the unit. It would be difficult for Neptune to build in control of another companies units and have to continually change their product to match. That would be ridiculous. But with Ecotech and AI having a large portion of the market with their lights and pumps, I just thought a controller to link all their systems together would be a perfect next step. It's like a company making the best engines, transmissions, and tires. Why not use that to make your own car?
Nothing Digital Aquatics is doing is going well.
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