What do you think about the disappearing of coral reef around the world?

[billsreef]

Interesting quote from a researcher here in South Florida. Taking from here, though I could just as easily talk to him in person.

“A healthy coral reef is typically covered 30 to 50 percent in live coral,” Burkepile said. “Recently, coral reefs in the Florida Keys have been found to have only 5 to 10 percent coverage.”

When I fix the problem, they grow back. According to you, they will just continue to die.

What Vitz is referring to is the thought they've already pushed things past a point of no return...things like those polar ice caps releasing trapped CO2 as they melt they just add to issues and essentially cause a feedback loop that will just keep on going. There is not absolute consensus that stopping all emissions won't help, but there does seem to be absolute resignation that big enough decline in our man made emissions will never actually occur...and that goes into global politics...

 

[vitz]

Interesting quote from a researcher here in South Florida. Taking from here, though I could just as easily talk to him in person.





What Vitz is referring to is the thought they've already pushed things past a point of no return...things like those polar ice caps releasing trapped CO2 as they melt they just add to issues and essentially cause a feedback loop that will just keep on going. There is not absolute consensus that stopping all emissions won't help, but there does seem to be absolute resignation that big enough decline in our man made emissions will never actually occur...and that goes into global politics...

Ding ding!
You, sir, may have any kewpie doll of your choosing

 

[power boat jim]

When ever someone predicts the end of all things as we know it and then goes on to state the internal combustion engine as the sole cause, I cant help but think they have ZERO credibility. We cant predict what a winter will bring with ANY degree of accuracy 3 months out let alone predict the entire destruction of the oceans and mankind.

If you look back, the earth's climate is still adjusting to an ice age that ended only 10,000 years ago.It could be argued that the ice caps and glaciers are the last remaining element of the ice age and their destruction is inevitable and natural. we have only possibly hastened the process. The earth historically has been a much warmer place then it is now. Climate change is going on no doubt, but never have the oceans been devoid of life the way some doomsayers claim they will be. Even when a meteor hit the planet 65 million years ago life in the oceans continued. Its logical to me that as ocean temps warm coral reefs and their inhabitants will move north and south to more temperate climates. If you want to predict the future it helps to look at the past.

 

[vitz]

Interesting comments.

First off, NOAA is well known for being completely accurate in every forecast that they have ever made.

Second, when I have troubles in my tank and the corals begin to die off. When I fix the problem, they grow back. According to you, they will just continue to die.

I was not aware that scientists have ever had an absolute consensus on anything.

What happened in Durban that is going to cause me to die?

Food for very serious thought:

The reefs worldwide haven't 'begun' to die-they've been dying for decades. I visited Eilat in '76, and again in '82-the amount of death then was astounding and profoundly obvious (as I'm sure it was in many other areas)

I can destroy any reef tank in less than 5 minutes-can't create one in 5 minutes

Ignorance isn't bliss

Most of the people who challenge the consensus of ACC (anthropomorphic climate change) are completely ignorant of both the science and present data available (there are mountains of irrefutable data) -trying to discuss the matter w/such is a non starter

(My one 'consolation' is that I never had kids- I couldn't bear the thought of bringing a human life
Into existence on this planet the way it is,and the way it will be.)

 

[vitz]

When ever someone predicts the end of all things as we know it and then goes on to state the internal combustion engine as the sole cause, I cant help but think they have ZERO credibility. We cant predict what a winter will bring with ANY degree of accuracy 3 months out let alone predict the entire destruction of the oceans and mankind.

If you look back, the earth's climate is still adjusting to an ice age that ended only 10,000 years ago.It could be argued that the ice caps and glaciers are the last remaining element of the ice age and their destruction is inevitable and natural. we have only possibly hastened the process. The earth historically has been a much warmer place then it is now. Climate change is going on no doubt, but never have the oceans been devoid of life the way some doomsayers claim they will be. Even when a meteor hit the planet 65 million years ago life in the oceans continued. Its logical to me that as ocean temps warm coral reefs and their inhabitants will move north and south to more temperate climates. If you want to predict the future it helps to look at the past.

I never said the internal combustion engine is the sole cause of global warming,nor did I imply it. Damn these pesky facts-they keep getting in the way!

 

[power boat jim]

See post 60 and tell me what it means then.

 

[vitz]

I find it somewhat odd and amazing how people can have one of the best clear examples of feedback loop effects/dynamics in the form of a reef tank in their house, and be completely oblivious to the concept as regards this planet. Makes me very sad.

 

[vitz]

Saying that stopping all combustion engines will not make a difference in stopping the feedback loops we've started is miles away from saying that combustion engines are the sole cause of climate change. I truly hope you can see that.

 

[vitz]

I thought I'd copied Dr. Goreau's email in it's entirety-my apologies. Here's the rest of it- the server seems to have cut it off at the end.

"THE INDEPENDENT

Shock as retreat of Arctic sea ice releases deadly greenhouse gas

Russian research team astonished after finding 'fountains' of methane bubbling to surface

STEVE CONNOR

TUESDAY 13 DECEMBER 2011


Dramatic and unprecedented plumes of methane "“ a greenhouse gas 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide "“ have been seen bubbling to the surface of the Arctic Ocean by scientists undertaking an extensive survey of the region.

The scale and volume of the methane release has astonished the head of the Russian research team who has been surveying the seabed of the East Siberian Arctic Shelf off northern Russia for nearly 20 years.

In an exclusive interview with The Independent, Igor Semiletov, of the Far Eastern branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences, said that he has never before witnessed the scale and force of the methane being released from beneath the Arctic seabed.

"Earlier we found torch-like structures like this but they were only tens of metres in diameter. This is the first time that we've found continuous, powerful and impressive seeping structures, more than 1,000 metres in diameter. It's amazing," Dr Semiletov said. "I was most impressed by the sheer scale and high density of the plumes. Over a relatively small area we found more than 100, but over a wider area there should be thousands of them."

Scientists estimate that there are hundreds of millions of tonnes of methane gas locked away beneath the Arctic permafrost, which extends from the mainland into the seabed of the relatively shallow sea of the East Siberian Arctic Shelf. One of the greatest fears is that with the disappearance of the Arctic sea-ice in summer, and rapidly rising te"

 

[power boat jim]

Since it was the only example named in specific I took that as the meaning, and yes I do understand feedback loops quite well. If I misunderstood then thats on me.

 

[power boat jim]

The rest of the article sure helps.

 

[jdhuyvetter]

Food for very serious thought:

The reefs worldwide haven't 'begun' to die-they've been dying for decades. I visited Eilat in '76, and again in '82-the amount of death then was astounding and profoundly obvious (as I'm sure it was in many other areas)

I can destroy any reef tank in less than 5 minutes-can't create one in 5 minutes

Ignorance isn't bliss

Most of the people who challenge the consensus of ACC (anthropomorphic climate change) are completely ignorant of both the science and present data available (there are mountains of irrefutable data) -trying to discuss the matter w/such is a non starter

(My one 'consolation' is that I never had kids- I couldn't bear the thought of bringing a human life
Into existence on this planet the way it is,and the way it will be.)

The reefs have been dying off for millenia. Long before people have been around. What frustrates me is that many (if not most) people assume that we are the cause of all of it. What about the nice fossil corals on my shelf that I collected in Ohio and Kentucky. Pretty sure man wasn't the cause of that one. What about the fossil corals and sand dollars I collected in S. Florida in the past 6 months. They are anywhere from 20 to 50 miles inland. Pretty sure I didn't have anything to do with that one either. Amazingly, even though they died in their entirety, reefs popped up elsewhere. You want to tell me that the moron that drug his boat anchor across the Breakers Reef needs to be thrown in jail....now we have something to agree upon. You want to tell me that the septic systems in Monroe County (FL Keys) need to be upgraded so that there is no effluent runoff....something else we can agree on!

I for one can create a reef in 5 minutes....(ok, sustaining it might be a problem)

Sorry you think I'm ignorant because I think that just because I read it on the internet, I don't think it's true.

I sincerely hope the mountains of irrefutable evidence you are referring to is not anything that came out of the UN or any other group that relies on scare tactics for funding. (and no, I'm not saying that all evidence is based on lies. I do not dispute man has had a negative impact on many things on this planet....reefs included. Just don't hand me a bowl of crap with sprinkles on top and call it ice cream)

I don't have kids either. But not because I'm scared the will ruin the planet. I personally think that we have a wonderful planet and love life....just need to clean up our mess.

 

[Luiz Rocha]

Thanks guys, thread officially derailed. IBTL.

jdhuyvetter: even if we completely eliminate climate change there are many other human activities that are destroying the reefs (pollution, sedimentation, anchoring, overfishing, destructive fishing, etc). 95% of the species on earth are now extinct. Many times in our planet's geological history, a lot of species went extinct. Extinction is a natural process. Does this mean we should burn the entire Amazon forest? That is what we are doing with the reefs.

 

[vitz]

"What do you think about the disappearing of coral reef around the world?"

I honestly think everyone's post in this thread directly responds to your question appropriately. How has the thread been derailed?

(Honest question-no trolling here)

 

[power boat jim]

Thanks guys, thread officially derailed. IBTL.

jdhuyvetter: even if we completely eliminate climate change there are many other human activities that are destroying the reefs (pollution, sedimentation, anchoring, overfishing, destructive fishing, etc). 95% of the species on earth are now extinct. Many times in our planet's geological history, a lot of species went extinct. Extinction is a natural process. Does this mean we should burn the entire Amazon forest? That is what we are doing with the reefs.

Yes, the reefs are being destroyed by pollution and all the associated activities. The question is how do we reverse this trend. There are so many different countries and parties around the world that would have to see this as the same problem we do. You could probably never get the cooperation needed world wide for this to happen. I hope I am proven wrong but if history is an indicator...

 

[vitz]

You may as well ask 'how do you get 7 billion people to agree on anything unanimously?'

 

[jdhuyvetter]

I completely agree with you Luiz. The points/comments I am trying to make are pretty much directed at the "over the top" comments that constantly pop up in these "discussions". Appologies if you think I have derailed the conversation.

A few examples from this thread:

.......people walking on and picking at the reefs.

Surely and issue and one that needs to be stopped. But cause for reefs dying all over the world? I don't think so.

Over population of the human species has led to this.

Really?! I would have thought our planet could support a lot more people than it currently does. Irresponsible behaviour of the population...that I can buy!

Humans are killing off the reefs....... Stop taking fish and inverts... I don't keep fish tanks cause they add a nice touch to the living room; I keep them because I want to learn more about them, and their natural environment.

I actually agree with a lot of comments in this post. I just found the contradiction interesting.

Guarantee nuclear fusion and solar energy will have a whole lot more funding when gas is $12 a gallon.

I disagree, but probably on too much of a political basis to comment here. However, I will say that solar power advances have come a long way. FPL (Florida Power & Light) is now building solar farms in Florida. It's all in the economics. On a commercial level, it's starting to become viable. Just not on an individual level. I just reroofed my house. They actually make solar panel roof tiles. I looked into them for my house, but they would have added about $20,000 to the cost of the roof. Not quite there yet for the average consumer. But, I do believe that the day is coming.

Here we go again, just keep believing 7 billion people cannot "change" a planet, but the fact is that we can. Short list of ways we (humans) do affect reefs, none of which are related to global warming:

1. Pollution (self-explanatory);
2. Sedimentation (most coastal forests are gone, without the forests all the sediment washes up in the reef);
3. Overfishing causing changes in the ecosystem equilibrium;
4. Destructive fishing (cyanide, dynamite, trawling);
5. Physically breaking the reef (either walking on it, dropping anchors, making ship channels or harvesting coral for limestone);
6. Marine debris (a.k.a. trash).

I included this because this is one of the few posts that I agree with 110%.

I wrote a paper on ocean acidification, and I learned a lot in the process.......

This isn't helped by fossil fuels because not only are their emissions recking havoc on our ecosystems, but fossil fuels are what give us the ability to sustain such a large population.

I would have thought that the huge increase in population was more attributed to the huge increase in life span as a result of medical and food advances. We now live to about 80 on average and one acre produces more food than ever before. Again, just opinion. This might make for an interesting "side bar" discussion.

If every single combustion engine on the planet stopped tomorrow, it wouldn't make one iota of difference-


There is indeed an absolute consensus in the scientific community that man made rapid climate change is an irrefutable fact-

My two favorite "over the top" comments in this thread

Coral reefs will be the first ecosystem to go extinct from global warming, far sooner than anyone realizes, but they won't be the last!

Assuming that global warming is 100% man made and is the only cause of coral reef die off, I'm still not sure I can buy into this one! I would think temperate forests or the tundra environments would be the first to go. Again, an interesting "side bar" discussion.

(My one 'consolation' is that I never had kids- I couldn't bear the thought of bringing a human life
Into existence on this planet the way it is,and the way it will be.)

I actually find this comment kind of depressing. I feel bad for you and I truly wisht that you enjoyed life more.

...... Many times in our planet's geological history, a lot of species went extinct. Extinction is a natural process. Does this mean we should burn the entire Amazon forest? That is what we are doing with the reefs.

EXACTLY. And no, we should not. Hence why I am a huge fan of aquaculture and reef restoration. Who in this thread to this point has an aquaculture certificate? (I do). Who in this thread has a tank that is entirely made up of aquacultured fish and inverts (I do). Who in this thread has donated to a reef restoration project? (I have twice).

And no, not trying to blast those of that haven't. I understand that many people that don't live in coastal areas do not have the same "options" that I do here in Florida. I am just trying to point out that I am not "ignorant" of the reef issues. I just don't buy into a lot of the "reasons" why the reefs are in trouble. I also believe that mother nature is far more resilient than most people give her credit.

I will also be the first to admit that in 20 years, I have made some huge mistakes in the world of reefing and fishkeeping in general. I do my best to try to ensure that people don't make the same mistakes I have (I do think that one might be a losing battle

 

[billsreef]

If you look back, the earth's climate is still adjusting to an ice age that ended only 10,000 years ago.It could be argued that the ice caps and glaciers are the last remaining element of the ice age and their destruction is inevitable and natural. we have only possibly hastened the process. The earth historically has been a much warmer place then it is now. Climate change is going on no doubt, but never have the oceans been devoid of life the way some doomsayers claim they will be. Even when a meteor hit the planet 65 million years ago life in the oceans continued. Its logical to me that as ocean temps warm coral reefs and their inhabitants will move north and south to more temperate climates. If you want to predict the future it helps to look at the past.

When you look back at the past, you need to look at the rates of change as well. The current rate of change is faster than anything in the past, and it's that rate that is heart of the claims of the reefs not adapting. When you ignore the popular media and just look at the science...the scientists are not saying there is not a natural warming trend going on, they are saying our contribution to it is causing it occur at a faster rate along with an expectation that the warming trend will peak higher than previous natural trends.

I disagree, but probably on too much of a political basis to comment here. However, I will say that solar power advances have come a long way. FPL (Florida Power & Light) is now building solar farms in Florida. It's all in the economics. On a commercial level, it's starting to become viable. Just not on an individual level. I just reroofed my house. They actually make solar panel roof tiles. I looked into them for my house, but they would have added about $20,000 to the cost of the roof. Not quite there yet for the average consumer. But, I do believe that the day is coming.

Actually in some areas of the country (Long Island is one), electric rates are high enough that solar panels rapidly pay for themselves on an individual basis. Though they certainly do have a ways to go to be cost effective in areas with low rates like Florida.

Assuming that global warming is 100% man made and is the only cause of coral reef die off, I'm still not sure I can buy into this one! I would think temperate forests or the tundra environments would be the first to go. Again, an interesting "side bar" discussion.

That assumption is only made by those in the media...sensationalism sells See my earlier comments in this post, as well as Luiz's comments about other impacts on the reefs.

In regards to temperate forests, they actually have wider temperature tolerances than reefs which IMO make them more adaptable to change. My understanding of the the tundras is that they are indeed in trouble...possible not much behind the reefs.

I just don't buy into a lot of the "reasons" why the reefs are in trouble. I also believe that mother nature is far more resilient than most people give her credit.

Yes, mother nature is quite resilient. But I've seen enough changes in my lifetime to think we've tilted things past that resilience...at least in terms of things remaining the way we currently know them.

 

[billsreef]

On a complete and utter Lounge style side track....

Luiz, is this guy any relation? Only difference in his name is an s instead of a z

 

[power boat jim]

I cant disagree with anything you said Bill. I think if ocean warming were the only problem facing the reefs they would migrate to cooler climes. The problem is compounded by pollution destruction of habitat and god knows what else. Its a problem that has to addressed on a global scale not just here. This of course is bases soley on my opinion and in keeping with a lounge style, pass me a bag of frags so I can do my part to save the planet.