why only 2 clowns?

[ctlegacy]

Cool. You have the mystery Black clown with yellow fins too. Seems to be hosting a clam. It says saddle back, but is it a special type of saddle back or will all saddle backs get yellow fins?

 

[Toddrtrex]

Cool. You have the mystery Black clown with yellow fins too. Seems to be hosting a clam. It says saddle back, but is it a special type of saddle back or will all saddle backs get yellow fins?

It was actually just swimming by the clam, it is hosted by 2 Haddonis -- it can't make up its mind.

Many moons ago I had a pair of brown saddlebacks (( A. polymnus )), and they didn't have any yellow. I think, but not sure, that it is just a trait with black ones.

 

[Beaun]

All those big rose bubble nems in the picture came from just 3 or 5 origionally I think. The hippos are medium sized I would say and they swim near the nems, not sure if they ever touch them. They also have a Morish Idol, a few butterflys and a kole tang to keep the sponges and algae down.

 

[elegance coral]

I did let get out of hand, but honestly I think "elegance coral". and people like him (or her?) hover through the forums waiting to pounce on people and rain on their parade. That to me is just wrong.

If that were true, the staff at RC would have shown me the door a long time ago, and rightfully so. I'm not one that concerns themselves with being to politically correct though. Sometimes, in order to help someone, you have to tell them things they don't want to hear.

I don't post here alot. I view these forums everyday though. I like the pictures. I like the stories, but I don't chime in unless I feel like I have something to contribute. That's why I don't post for 3 months at a time. Even though I thought elegance coral's response to the guy with the new tomato clown was possible the most irresponsibe, and ill timed comment someone has ever made. I didn't say anything, because I had nothing to contribute. Actually, I should have just posted something like, "Nice tomato", but I didn't. So even elegance coral claims he's not trying to be a reef god, I think he would have to be to declare:
- "This is a new fish to you, correct? It looks malnourished. If it were my fish, I'd start feeding it about twice a day with foods like krill, mysis, and frozen variety mixes. I'd soak the food in vitamins and amino acids before feeding. Hopefully, it's just malnourished and doesn't have other issues like internal parasites, or some other sickness that's causing it to lose weight."
From a blury picture he recommends over-feeding and soaking foods. I agree that you're not a reef god, but I don't agree that you don't think you are.

I wasn't going to defend myself against this, because others explained the situation to you, before I had a chance, but you won't let it go. (Thanks to those that attempted to set the record straight.:thumbsup

I started my post by saying, "This is a new fish to you, correct?". In other words, the fishes malnutrition could not be contributed to the care the OP was providing. Malnutrition does not happen over night. If it is a new fish to the OP, they can not be responsible for the fishes malnutrition. If my goal was to attack the OP, I would have said something much different.

Then I went on to say, "If it were my fish"........ I didn't jump down the OP's throat or demand that they do anything. I simply stated what I would do if I had a fish in the same condition. If my goal was to be rude or insulting, I would not have gone into detail about what types of food to feed, how often to feed, or suggest supplementing the food with vitamins.

Granted, my post was not what the OP wanted to hear, but it was what they needed to hear. I don't want to read a thread from them next week wanting to know why their pet died. If someone post a pic of a pet that is ill, and they obviously do not know their pet is ill, isn't it just the right thing to do, to tell them? How can the OP help their pet if no one tells them it is ill?

The pic was a little blurry, but the protruding bones and lack of muscle tissue was obvious. The fish has lost so much weight that in the head on shot, all you can see of the first stripe is where it crosses the spine. The rest of it is sunken in behind the skull. There should be large muscles between the skull and the dorsal fin. A fishes side should be smooth and rounded. The shot showing the side of this fish, showed depressions and bulges from the underlying skeleton.

Feeding a fish twice a day is not "over feeding". Many hobbyists and breeders feed twice a day. In fact, Joyce Wilkerson in her book Clownfishes, suggests feeding two or three times a day. She also suggests using "enrichment products". These are suggestions for fish that are healthy. These measures become even more important for a fish that is malnourished.


I do not think of myself as a "reef God". There is still more about this hobby that I don't know, than I do know. You won't see me over in the SPS forum trying to give advice. You may see me ask questions over there though. I surly won't be over there trying to argue with those experienced hobbyists about SPS corals. Arrogance leads to ignorance. This is a very complicated hobby. When you start getting into animal behavior, it gets real complicated. There is no way anyone could understand how anemone fish behave in a matter of months. It's simply to complicated, and you don't have time to observe clowns as they mature. Someone with a few months experience trying to argue with those with years of experience is just ridiculous. It would be like me arguing with the experienced SPS keepers.

 

[kerusso316]

The opinions they have doesn't come from reading stuff on the web. It comes from years of observing the behavior of these fish in their own homes. The fact that they share very similar opinions, should speak volumes to those just starting out in the hobby.[/QUOTE]
Amen brother!!!!!!!!It's hard to do the quote thing right on an Iphone

 

[savageAJC]

after wasting my time reading this thread i feel it shouldve been locked by a mod. sad what this original discussion turned in to. If i was new to RC i would have been totally turned off and looked elsewhere. shame on all sides.

just my opinion take it how you want it.

oh yeah, Beaun, amazing picture! I will have to visit that place someday!

 

[mobert]

I mean really in the wild you'll usually see an anemone with 100s of clowns sharing the same anemone. Why in the hobby and home aquarium do people usually suggest only 2 in a tank?There are 27 clowns in this persons tank,which by the way is one of my favorite tanks EVER!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OukzEoeGqJU&feature=related

I'm glad you like my tank. Obtaining the elusive family unit where multiple clownfish share the same anemone is tricky. As previously pointed out, one key to success is that all my clowns are from the same clutch and have never been separated. This is important because each clown is part of a pecking order. There is a specific clown that is above and below each clown and they need to work this out before they are big enough to kill each other. Mini squabbles were between clowns that were above or below a particular clown. Once the heirachy is worked out, there seems to be no more squabbles if all their bedding and food needs are continually met.

Bedding needs should be either lots of beds or no beds. The mated pair ceased all possessiveness once their magnifica was no longer there. They immediately let a few other clowns in with them the night a BTA was moved over into their spot. When you have a mass of anemones, there is no boundary where a single anemone can be claimed by a particular clown. I added a bunch of off-springs into the tank and those that lived are now part of the pack sleeping right in with the elders. (Before anyone gives me grief for cruelty, they probably had better odds for survival than the ones that went to the lfs).

Food has to be in such abundance that the smaller clowns don't have to jostle the bigger clowns to get a bite. I flood my tank with food once or twice a day and wet skim constantly. It can be a challenge to keep the water quality up.

As far as mixed species, I have only raised True Percs and Clarkii together in a grow out tank for their first few months of life. My guess is if I put baby True Percs, Skunks, and Occellaris together of the same size when very very young, there is a chance they will get along long term if the numbers are sufficient to disperse the original aggression. This is only a guess and I don't know how many would be needed but I do know three or four clownfish in one tank are not good numbers.

I have added a pair of Pearl Eyed baby Clarkii in the tank. They are too fast for the Percs to catch and they sleep in the same anemones but after a few weeks, there is still a little bit of meanness going on. My hope is that they will eventually be accepted like the baby Percs and they remember their place in the pecking order even as they grow bigger than the Percs.

I would not recommend anyone trying to put a few pairs of clownfish in the same tank unless it was a very big tank where the pairs cannot see each other when they are in their respective anemones on opposite sides of the tank and then only the mild species of clowns. The dynamics would be very different than a clutch of clownfish that were raised together.

 

[elegance coral]

Mobert,
I'm glad you took the time to chime in on this thread, and explain some of the key factors that make your tank a success. I, like many others here, have chimed in on your thread praising what you're doing and the beauty of your system. It is truly an inspiration to us all. It is a world away from what's being advocated in this thread though. You can't even compare what you're doing to simply dumping a bunch of clowns of many different species into the same tank together. It's apples and oranges.

 

[ctlegacy]

Okay, now that we are all talking like normal adults. Here is what my local breeder says. Again EC, I'm not saying this is law. I'm saying this is an opinion. I'll say it again. ****THIS IS ONLY AN OPINION**** However, it is does explain my fish tanks even though they have only been up and running for 2 years (nano) and 9 months (150g).

He says that he doesn't believe mixed breed or same clutch make as much difference as just having all juvenile at the same time. Basically just all growing up together.

That being said, I did add a juvenile MAROON that was like a 1.25" wrecking ball, and had to be removed as fast as I could catch him, so I don't believe that the OPINION can apply to the overly aggressive breeds. I have 4 new PNG clowns that I picked up yesterday that just went into my QT tank, so I am going to try adding those in 3 weeks or so.

So far on the 2 year nano and on the 9 month 150g I've seen no aggressive behavior besides the maroon and 1 cinnamin that now happily resides in my sump with a spotted damsel.

Mobert, I also feed heavily. When I feed frozen foods, I target feed to the anemones and try to make it so that no one has to "compete" for the food, and as I said earlier, I hand feed dry and pellet food.

 

[Brandon1652]

So back the the original question. Why only two clowns? I *think* it is safe to say that this is a good rule of thumb for all but the most experienced. Reading through the thread it does appear that everyone here believes that statement. These "rules" are there for beginners and those with little experience so that they can keep their pets happy and healthy.

As a fish keeper gains a broad range of experience (I am intentionally leaving experience undefined) he/she is more capable of breaking the rules. In this case, having multiple clowns and species of clown in the same tank. To do this successfully you must be paying close attention to all the fish and be capable of taking the necessary steps when you recognize a problem. This is where a newly beginning aquarist would have trouble. Without the experience base they will not know if their fish are actually having trouble or not. They would be incapable or recognizing the existence of a problem.

So again, no one is saying that it cannot be done, or even that it cannot be done successfully. What is being said is that we have "rules" and so-called "laws" for the inexperienced to have greater chances of success.

Ctlegacy, when you posted the advice that you can have as many clowns as you want without problem, others stepped in so that they could 1)outline what is necessary for successfully keeping multiple clowns, 2) determine your experience and see how successful you have been in your endeavors and 3)answer the original question as to why it is widely accepted that only two clowns should be kept.

 

[bues0022]

Brandon - That seems to be a very good summary.

The only problem with everything is the "experience" part. How does one know when they are experienced enough to do this? I know some who are more than qualified based on years of experience and understanding, but they may not think of themselves as wanting to take on this endevour. Meanwhile, some who are unexperienced *think* more highly of themselves than they actually are. It's kinda like that saying - the more you know, the more you know you don't know.

*this is in now way aimed at anyone - just a generalization of human nature

 

[lisafoster]

I have 4 two pecula and two black and white for 20 ,onths in a 125. They have never even noticed eachother. The only fights are when the female black and white has a domestic dispute with her man the other black and white. I have alot of anemones and lps they are too interested in those. Maybe that is why this has been successful so far. It was not my intention to put them together but I took down a tank. If you are going to try it I would stay away from the more aggressive clown tomatoes, clarkis, marroon. Make sure you have plenty of anemones and other coral they can host. keep an eye out though I now have a tank set up that I can move them to if this situation becomes a problem. I would never do more than two pairs

 

[rayn]

Not trying to bring this back up, but I have a question about this. Why is it, that when you go to the LFS there are about 15 clowns swimming together in a little gallon cube? They all seem fine and I never notice fighting in there. If someone were to buy 8 of these at once would that be doable? No not that I am either.

 

[Brandon1652]

Fish stores are holding tanks definitely not meant for long term. That is why they are often overcrowded and sometimes have fish that should not be placed together.

 

[Toddrtrex]

Not trying to bring this back up, but I have a question about this. Why is it, that when you go to the LFS there are about 15 clowns swimming together in a little gallon cube? They all seem fine and I never notice fighting in there. If someone were to buy 8 of these at once would that be doable? No not that I am either.

They are usually still juvis, you aren't at the LFS long enough to see it, and they aren't kept together for any "real" amount of time. Those are the first ones that come off the top of my head.

 

[elegance coral]

And the customer usually doesn't get to see the number of dead fish the LFS removes from their system every morning before the store opens.

If those fish were left in that small cube, eventually there would probably be only two left. All breeders keep juvenile fish together in grow out tanks. This is a temporary situation. The goal is to sell the fish before they start maturing and killing each other off.

 

[bues0022]

If you think of the rest of the animal kingdom, most animals are rather docile and social when young. As they mature many species need to spread out or bad results happen. This is especially true with territorial and/or aggressive animals. Though it's hard to imagine cute little nemo being either, clownfish are both.

 

[phil519]

If those fish were left in that small cube, eventually there would probably be only two left. All breeders keep juvenile fish together in grow out tanks. This is a temporary situation. The goal is to sell the fish before they start maturing and killing each other off.

+1. Even at 4 weeks of age - the clownfish I have spawned start to separate out between the super aggressive feeders and the runts. The runts will stunt in size and fall to the bottom of the tank if they are not removed. Even as I type now the biggest clowns (in a tank of 30 fry) are locking jaws in a spiral of aggression. It's normal and they don't do any damage - but they are clearly flexing their strength saying this is my space, I eat here - don't even think about it.

If you remove all the super aggressors and sell them to the LFS - that's what you see. or you remove all the runts and sell them together - that's what you see. Eventually those the hierarchy is re-set at the LFS - but before that happens - the fish are sold, or new fish introduced re-mixing the hierarchy.

Once the hierarchy is established though the guy on the bottom gets completely ostracized with nothing to eat.

 

[phil519]

If you think of the rest of the animal kingdom, most animals are rather docile and social when young. As they mature many species need to spread out or bad results happen. This is especially true with territorial and/or aggressive animals. Though it's hard to imagine cute little nemo being either, clownfish are both.

I read somewhere on this board where someone said clownfish are just damselfish with fancy patterns/stripes. Pretty accurate.

 

[ctlegacy]

I know it's not the case everywhere, but I know at most of my local salt water stores they buy the clowns all at once from 1 breeder. So when you see 30 in the same display cube, they are typically from the same clutch.