won pro heater, must see

[crescent1]

quote from reefmarker(Although I think the ground is basically useless in this application...and potentially harmful.

i respectivly disagree, i see your point in refrence to the heating element, and also with the plastic enclosure wich protects the electronics but it can get wet and can be touched by human hands. now were talking about 110volts reaching you instead of 24v.

 

[kfisc]

Again assuming this problem is widespread, we have at the very least a potential case of false advertising/deception of some kind- A three-prong plug and a bit sturdier gauge wire helped in part sell me on the product- yet to be fair, the thing works very well in my tank, and i'm reluctant to pass judgement until we see how far this goes....

 

[crescent1]

quote from reefmarker(3) Look at most of your equipment in your tank. It isn't grounded. Most stuff doesn't even have a 3 prong plug.)

all of my equipment has a three prong plug and one way or another is grounded.

 

[rbaker]

Surprisingly there is a titanium heater that's about half the cost of WON, it's made by Via Aqua and sold at BigAl's online. I think I paid about $16 for a 100w titanium. Been using them for about 9 weeks now, and they hold the temp exactly where I set it (confirmed with thermometer).

Every single Via-Aqua titanium heater i've sold has died within 6 months... Please keep us posted...

Ryan

 

[Coral Dilema]

Re: 24vdc

Re: 24vdc

if you look at the blue box( transformer) it says that the heating coil( the heating rod that goes in your tank) is getting 24vdc, wich amounts to the power you would find in a household door bell transformer, not enough volts to hurt you but would tingle a bit in saltwater.

i still cant figure out why the control module isent grounded, except for the isolated neutral( white wire) .

Voltage doesnt kill you, current does. Voltage is the amount of pressure pushing the electrons, the current is the amount of electrons flowing, they are related, but not the same. It takes about 50 milliamps of current to make your muscles (AKA Heart) contract to the point that you lose control over them. at 24 volts, 350 watts, the current flowing through that is 14.58 amps. A 500 watt heater would be drawing 20.8 amps. You may ask how is this possible considering the heater is only hooked up onto a 15 amp receptacle or such. Easy, When you convert 120 volts AC to 24 volts DC, you are decreasing the voltage by a factor of 5, at the same time you increase the current by a factor of 5. So when a 24 volt heating element is drawing 20 amps, it is only drawing 20/5 amps on the 120 volt side.

4 amps = 4000 milliamps, and it only takes 50 to kill you, so yes, under the right circumstances, this heater could be deadly. Considering that the heating element rests inside the titanium tube, and isnt directly attached, the titanium tube could be connected to earth ground, just in case through some freak set of incidents you happen to lose isolation between the 120 AC and 24 DC sides of the circuit. Its not very likely that you would lose that isolation, but it only takes 1 time to kill you.

At the same time though, I have never seen a single glass heater have a 3 prong connector.

 

[Desolas]

Voltage doesnt kill you, current does.

Yes, but you forget to also add that the human body has enough resistance that it requires more than 72 volts before it will pass through your body to ground. So while a open circuit could carry 100 amps, if it is only 12v it won't jump through you to ground.

I don't think even with an open short at the heating element side it would create enough voltage to hurt you. The voltage may harm your fish (maybe), but would be most harmful is the buring occuring at the short.

Which points out that as long as those heaters don't have a tendancy to break and stay on/overheat that heater is far safer than you typical glass tube heater which has 120v of AC directly in the water. I very much like the idea of a heater that uses low voltage and high current to heat the element opposed to one that uses high voltage and less current.

Also I think since the controller portion is out of the water they could have easily built it so it was groundable, they could have built it more like a transformer and given it a ground. That would have required more money, and really isn't necessary. Kind of odd they'd waste money on the extra wires though.

 

[AcroSteve]

i think your missing my point, my concern isent with grounding the tank water with a probe, but having a ground on the electrical equipment we put in the water.

You should understand this a little better as you are a residential electritian.

The ground wire in power tools or other things are attached to the metal frame. This is to allow any stray electrical current to find its way to ground through the wire. This is to prevent it from going to ground through your BODY when you touch it.

As this heater controller appears to have no metal parts(other than the conductors on the circuit board), I feel the ground is not needed here. My initial comment was made with the assumption that 120V was used in the heating element. I have since learned it is just 24V. And agree with reefmarkers justification as to why the element should not be grounded also.

Now, if there were any metal heat-sinks or other internal metal parts that were not part of an electical circuit, they should be grounded.

 

[crescent1]

i think you guys are missing my point, the heater is sold to you and me , with a three prong plug.
So we all just figure thats its grounded, one way or another.

i think that the main control should be grounded, maybe on the circut board to protect the user from salt water/ moisture wich we all know happends.

 

[AcroSteve]

i think you guys are missing my point, the heater is sold to you and me , with a three prong plug.
So we all just figure thats its grounded, one way or another.

That is true. The 3-prong plug does make it appear to be a "better" product. Maybe if they had a plastic encased - metal housing around the circuit board, and grounded that, there would not be as many problems with EMI making the heaters malfunction.

Consider it slightly deceptive advertising. Sadly, what are the alternatives for those of us that want a reasonably priced titanium heater?

Never, the less, I WILL be checking mine also when I get it. Does it come apart with screws, or is the housing glued together?

 

[jackson6745]

Every single Via-Aqua titanium heater i've sold has died within 6 months... Please keep us posted...

Ryan

Ryan....how many have you sold?
I've been using my via aqua for 6 months with no problems. I have my trusty old Ebo Jager in case it fails though....

 

[reefmarker]

I've had 4 via aqua titanium 300 watts in the last 3 years. First one still working (3 years old), 2nd one still working (1.5 years), 3rd one failed within a month, 4th one still working (5 months).

Not a fabulous rate, but for $19 a piece it is great. I use digital temp's with alarms (not part of heater) that lets me know when something is wrong.

 

[Tunjee]

hey tunjee, if you get a chance, put a continuity tester from the ground on the male end and to the heating rod and tell me if you get continuity.

kfisk, i havent noticed any problems with the ca build-up but it should be cleaned before it gets that bad.

Ya I did that already and stated it in my first post Yes it gets continuity. I bought this heater specificaly for that reason. I didnt want to add a grounding probe, heater and digital thermometer. With this heater I get all three in one component. I wasnt sure if my titanium probe was grounded so I ran continuity on it that day I got it to make sure.

 

[Tunjee]

I thought i read somewhere that a GFCI is useless if not grounded... would that make it useless if this heater had a problem?

A GFCI can and will work fine even if its not grounded. All it does is detect the amount of current (milliamps) passing through the hot side and amount of current coming back through the neutral side. When 5 milliamps differential is detected the between the hot and neutral the GFCI will trip. See if the current is not coming back on the neutral where is it going? To a ground somewhere obviously . If you notice your GFCI will come with stickers that say "no equipment ground". Your supposed to put those on the GFCI if no ground is present and on all load side receps down the line of the GFCI.

 

[reefmarker]

One minor point. If a ground wire is present, you must ground a GFCI. Ground not required is only if you don't have a ground available.

 

[Tomzpc]

Every single Via-Aqua titanium heater i've sold has died within 6 months... Please keep us posted...

Ryan

Myself and a number of the guys in my reef club have been using the Via Aquas for a year or two with no problems whatsoever. I like it much better than the Won that I had, mostly because the temperature adjustment knob works much better.

 

[Coral Dilema]

Yes, but you forget to also add that the human body has enough resistance that it requires more than 72 volts before it will pass through your body to ground. So while a open circuit could carry 100 amps, if it is only 12v it won't jump through you to ground.

I said under the right conditions, that being an open cut or some other set of circumstances that causes the current to be applied beneath your skin. An open circuit is just that, an open, there is no current flow in an open circuit.

I don't think even with an open short at the heating element side it would create enough voltage to hurt you.

An open and a short are 2 different things, I'm not sure what you are talking about here. An open circuit is an electrical circuit where there is not a complete path for the current to flow, therefore no current flows. A short circuit is an electrical circuit where there is an unintended path for the current to take, Thereby causing the current to take the 'short' path and bypass a portion of the circuit. In a short circuit you have the maximum current flow that the circuit can provide.

Which points out that as long as those heaters don't have a tendancy to break and stay on/overheat that heater is far safer than you typical glass tube heater which has 120v of AC directly in the water.

I agree, however even the 120 volt glass heaters only apply about 30 volts to the heating element, the orange light that comes on in the heater when it is operating is a neon bulb, which requires about 90 volts to ionize the gas, thereby dropping 90 volts across it. The neon bulb is wired in series with the heater element, so only the remaining 30 volts is applied to the heater element. You do still have 120 volt AC potential in the tank though.

I very much like the idea of a heater that uses low voltage and high current to heat the element opposed to one that uses high voltage and less current.

I do too, if it would just work . . I ordered a 350 watt from marine depot and it was broke when I got it. I have an RMA# now, time to box it up.

Also I think since the controller portion is out of the water they could have easily built it so it was groundable, they could have built it more like a transformer and given it a ground. That would have required more money, and really isn't necessary. Kind of odd they'd waste money on the extra wires though.

Mine is grounded, I opened it to check. The earth ground wire from the heating element is connected directly to the earth ground pin that plugs into the 120v outlet. Basically, its a heater AND a titanium grounding rod.

 

[Looper121]

IMO a product so associated with water should be grounded. Yes if you HAVE a GFCI I suppose you are protected but this is all very subjective. Not everyone has a GFCI so how about these folks and as many have said it is sold to you with a three prong plug assuming to you that it is grounded which is very misleading...

But wow, they actually go to that length to make it with a three prong plug and not actually utilize it. that is the biggest concern.

 

[srfndoc]

Coral Dilema....you said yours was grounded, what brand/model do you have?

Thanks

 

[reelheel]

I have bought three of the Won titaniums and two of them "stuck" on and continued to heat the water beyond the set point. Luckily, one was used in a SW mixing trash can, and the other was "borrowed" by my roommate and almost fried his tank (serves him right) lol.

Anyway, I liked the durability of the titanium, but I've been apprehensive to say the least in using these heaters. I have 6 or 7 ebo-jagers that I use exclusively now...too bad...you have to be so much more careful w/ glass...

My .02

 

[Coral Dilema]

Its a won pro heat IC aquarium heater, 350 watt. UPC code 60782013350. I ordered it from marine depot on Jan. 19th.

Mine doesnt work so maybe they forgot to clip the ground wire