ZeoVit system?

[parshmar]

Here's some other good reading... Pay particular attention to Bornemans' conclusion... make an informed decision

To each his own but honestly, i'd be a little embarrassed if I was the author of that.

Sounds like, to me, that he is trying to tell people not to use someting(s) that he has never tried or has no first hand knowledge about, impressive.

 

[PUGroyale]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7702903#post7702903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by parshmar
To each his own but honestly, i'd be a little embarrassed if I was the author of that.

Sounds like, to me, that he is trying to tell people not to use someting(s) that he has never tried or has no first hand knowledge about, impressive.

Geez... you're the second person to jump on Borneman in this thread. That's the problem with the written word kinda takes on a life of it's own. Borneman never mentions any of todays' products in his article whatsoever [with the exception of intercepter] so any connection made between Zeovit and that article was entirely my fault for linking it. My bad

 

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7694180#post7694180 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CAreefer
I deleted this post several times before deciding to reply, but decided what the heck.

This is exactly where I'm coming from as well ... apologies up front if any of my comments strike anyone as offensive.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7703259#post7703259 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PUGroyale
... Borneman never mentions any of todays' products in his article whatsoever ...

While Mr. Borneman does not mention any products by name, no one should have any doubts that he is referring to products being marketed today. Their descriptions should sound familiar ... many of them are advertised and sold by Reef Central sponsors. More specifically ...

Treats cotton-like fungal infections, and both internal and external bacterial infections….a safe and natural remedy; prevents the development of resistant strains of disease-causing organisms. Will not discolor water, affect biological filter, or pH during treatment."

This extract from The Skeptical Aquarist" refers to ... PimaFix
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=11269

... contains an elemental iodine complex that protects slime coats while safely and gently cleaning corals. It is effective against bacteria, fungus, and protozoan infections with less risk of toxicity to corals.

This extract from The Skeptical Aquarist" refers to ... SeaChem's Reef Dip
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...=Shopping Portal-_-Froogle-_-Fish-_-Reef Dip

You may never need to clean the aquarium again. Benefits both fresh and salt water aquariums. Reduces water changes by up to 75%. Eliminates cloudy and yellowing water. Dramatically reduces green algae growth. Keeps water crystal clear year round. Stabilizes pH while increasing O.R.P. Relieves stress and improves health. Prevents and helps cure all diseases while sustaining appetites during infestations. Stimulates blood cells with concentrated O2 to maintain healthier immune systems.

This extract from The Skeptical Aquarist" refers to ... ECO-Aqualizer
http://www.ecoaqualizer.com/aquarium.htm

With scientifically recognized immunostimulants. Ideal for acclimation of new specimens. Enhances disease resistance in marine and brackish water fishes and invertebrates. Contains beneficial microbes that compete with disease organisms. Discourages reproduction of disease organisms - bacterial, viral and fungal. Enhances benefits of medications and aids them in curing disease. Reduces stress. Aids respiration and gas exchange. Nontoxic to fishes and invertebrates. Not affected by pH, UV and skimmers…not a nutrient or medicament.

This extract from The Skeptical Aquarist" refers to ... Marc Weiss' Immuno-Vital Marine with Beta Glucan
http://www.aquatictech.com/chemicals.html

It is collected from rare mud patches, discovered by science years ago, which are found in clear uncontaminated seawater. These patches typically occur at 40 - 50 feet of cool, clear water just off the coral reef….unique in its ability to release essential minerals and vital nutrients that will allow hard and soft corals to flourish whether you are starting a new refugium or topping up your existing one. This product contains all the major and minor trace elements as they naturally occur as well as an elaborate network of 5-100 micron size organisms that are critical for the success with Acropora and other small polyp stony corals.

This extract from The Skeptical Aquarist" refers to ... Walt Smith's Fiji Mud Refugium Booster and Starter
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_additives_walt_smith_fiji_mud_gold.asp?CartId=

…contains anaerobic microorganisms that denitrify the aquarium leading to a pristine home for your fishes and corals. Further proven benefits from the usage….include: reversal of head and lateral line erosion (HLLE) in fishes, restoration and maintenance of fish and coral's health and vibrant colors; compatibility in various types of aquariums (fish-only tanks, coral-only tanks, or small polyped stony (SPS) reef tanks); natural denitrifier.

This extract from The Skeptical Aquarist" refers to ... Miracle Mud
http://www.aquacave.com/detail.aspx?ID=352

A Breakthrough for Hobbyists. No More Guessing. No Protein Skimmer Required. No More Balancing of Chemicals. Reef and Fish Keeping Made Simple. Discus and Tropical Fish Keeping Made Simple. A Simple and Natural Approach to Aquarium Filtration. Achieve Professional Results With No Prior Experience. Prevents and Reverses Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE).

This extract from The Skeptical Aquarist" refers to ... Ecosystem Miracle Mud Filters
http://www.aquadirect.com/store/product.php?productid=365&cat=0&page=1


For the record ...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7703259#post7703259 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PUGroyale
... so any connection made between Zeovit and that article ...

Speaks for itself ...

"After a very long test period…, we are confident that it is now simple to maintain the extreme natural coloration found in SPS from Fiji, Tonga, The Solomon Islands, and Micronesia. The aquarium water is biologically revived, all the corruptive elements are exported by the skimmer and the (product)…Old or brown SPS will return to their natural color. The tissue will brighten and colors will change to bright and/or metallic appearance. Polyp extension is also significantly increased during the hours of light. A Miracle drug? Perhaps. The time taken to achieve the coloration seen in our own systems can vary up to as much as 9 months and is very much dependant upon the level of contamination in the aquarium. Those who hope to see the effect after a few days, should try something else - this takes time and patience, but the results are very worthwhile…The (product) system is constantly being improved and further developed to offer better value to the home aquarist.

This extract from The Skeptical Aquarist" refers to ... you guessed it ... ZEOvit
http://www.captiveoceans.com/aboutzeovit.html

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7703259#post7703259 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PUGroyale
Geez... you're the second person to jump on Borneman in this thread.

I have no intention of being the third ... quite the contrary. I believe that Mr. Borneman's wish and suggestion ..."I keep hoping a change is coming; that aquarists will begin to learn and understand that most aquarium products are based on profit and not science; ... Is it not time for all of us to become skeptical aquarists and use the true knowledge we have gained and shared with each other, rather than buying into the product descriptions of marketed products with no proof of their claims?" ... should be required reading for marine hobbyists, especially for those engaged in the wild and wacky world of North American marine ornamental e-commerce.

JMO ...


Please don't misinterpret me ... I've been completely satisfied with the results of my investment in a ZEOvit system. Even though I've only been in the hobby since the mid-1970's, and am only a lowly unpublished biologist (B. A. Biological Sciences, CSULB, 1987) ... I know the real deal when I use it.

JMO ...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7682567#post7682567 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by icliao

Does it really that good?

At any given moment I can't decide whose mastery and artistry is worth more serious investigation ... Steve Weast, or Alexander Girz? ... JB NY, or invincible569? ... and what about Iwan? ... so any answer that I could give would be based on "experience", "anecdotal evidence", and "photo-documentation". In other words, from a rationalist perspective ... storytime and happy pictures. Fun enough ... (to be sure) ... common enough ... (think about reefkeeping cyberspaces, in general) ... maybe even useful. But hardly anything that would qualify as "empirical science". Until Mr. Borneman's standard of N = 20 and p = 0.05 is applied such that testable, verifiable, and replicable data is generated for both Berlin-style and ZEOvit systems, we're all just talking and sharing pictures of the kids.

If you really what to reach an objective decision, I strongly urge you to invest some time and effort into some research and reading. You might wish to consider whether or not the functional difference between an ecosystem which is both carbon and nitrogen limited (Berlin systems) vs. an ecosystem which is nitrogen limited, but not carbon limited (ZEOvit systems) means anything to your particular style of reef artistry. You might also wish to consider whether or not a system which purposefully generates macroaggregates ("marine snow") fits into your husbandry style in terms of feeding, nutrient export, and coloration.


JMO ... and sorry for the post length, folks.

 

[sangraal]

That was a very good post. Tks.

 

[PUGroyale]

Terrific post Mesocosm :thumbsup: I stand corrected on the Zeovit sales spiel being part of the article. You really put a lot of work into matching the individual products up with their sales literature. I didn't recognize any of them of the top of my head and I doubt most readers would either. Borneman IMO was simply drawing a parallel between the flowery sales jargon of old and today's marketing hype... it really hasn't changed much over the years. If his intent was to single out or bash these products [ :lol: c'mon... the ECO-aqualizer :lol:] I think he would have mentioned them by name. Just my take on the article

 

[PUGroyale]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7705538#post7705538 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
I believe that Mr. Borneman's wish and suggestion ..."I keep hoping a change is coming; that aquarists will begin to learn and understand that most aquarium products are based on profit and not science; ... Is it not time for all of us to become skeptical aquarists and use the true knowledge we have gained and shared with each other, rather than buying into the product descriptions of marketed products with no proof of their claims?" ... should be required reading for marine hobbyists, especially for those engaged in the wild and wacky world of North American marine ornamental e-commerce.

JMO ...

... this was the main reason I linked the article

 

[skippyreef]

Nice Mesocosm Nice indedd!!!

 

[Eric Boerner]

I think you totally mis-interpreted what the spirit of that article was. Companies, especially in this 'hobby' have a tendency to sell products with zero scientific evidence or data. They throw out the sales pitch based on visual results. Those results often are 'not typical', yet they make out the product to be the all-wonder cure, much like they did in those 30's rags. Basically the whole article was a huge "Caveat Emptor"...

I've seen Zeovit system in action first hand 4 years ago when it was first becoming the 'popular trend'... I've seen several extremely beautiful tanks totally bleach from using it. Of course there was almost no real information about it then. But still. There were people more than willing to dive head first into this amazing wonder-cure, with little regard to their animals, based on hearsay.

 

[Big E]

At any given moment I can't decide whose mastery and artistry is worth more serious investigation ... Steve Weast, or Alexander Girz? ... JB NY, or invincible569? ... and what about Iwan?

And therein lies part of the conundrum...........there are a handful of systems that are beautiful using different methods. There isn't one specific method that has hundereds of systems boasting spectacular health & colors.

Zeo's been out plenty long enough to lay this claim, and so far it isn't happpening, nor is it happening with any other method.

That tells me it's more the aquarist than the method. Improve your skills & the system flourishes. That's what all these reefer's have in common. It's like this in any hobby or endeavor.

There are no miracle products in this hobby..........it all requires the hand of a skilled reefer.

 

[kevensquint]

A.Calfo has said that Zeovit can work, but you basically are maintaining everything by removing all the nutrients and adding back chemicals that the corals may or may not need. So you end up manually doing what a good system with more conventional husbandry/equipment can do. With an additive system you walk a fine line between all looks great and a tank crash. By the looks of your pics, I don't know why you want to try.

 

[kevensquint]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7706848#post7706848 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Eric Boerner
I think you totally mis-interpreted what the spirit of that article was. Companies, especially in this 'hobby' have a tendency to sell products with zero scientific evidence or data. They throw out the sales pitch based on visual results. Those results often are 'not typical', yet they make out the product to be the all-wonder cure, much like they did in those 30's rags. Basically the whole article was a huge "Caveat Emptor"...
.

No, I asked E.Borneman last month what he thought of Zeovit and he basically said just that. He has never had a straight answer or scientific data from Korallin or anyone else that would prove to him that this is a useful product. He said that even though some tanks look good while using Zeovit, so far the evidence is "annecdotal" and not proven. I can't link the thread here, but if your creative, look for a thread somewhere containing his name my name and Zeovit.

 

[chadfarmer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7707402#post7707402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kevensquint
A.Calfo has said that Zeovit can work, but you basically are maintaining everything by removing all the nutrients and adding back chemicals that the corals may or may not need. So you end up manually doing what a good system with more conventional husbandry/equipment can do. With an additive system you walk a fine line between all looks great and a tank crash. By the looks of your pics, I don't know why you want to try.

do you believe everything these experts say about everything

 

[DrBDC]

I don't think there is really a debate about whether it works or not. The only question is "what is it"? Odds are that it is readily available for a much cheaper price, thus the secrecy. And with the secrecy brings conspiracy theories, long term possible consequence theories, etc.

What I'm surprised at is that there hasn't been any group money pooling to get comprehensive tests run on the components. Is it patented? i.e. if you look up the patent on joes juice it says exactly what it is. Maybe there has been tests run and I missed them or didn't look hard enough. The one test I did see started at day 4-60 IIRC and there was a considerable aluminum release from the zeolites but maybe one of the other components counteracted that or who knows maybe aluminum levels don't matter. There was another element that was debated too but I don't recall whether it was iron or ?? And maybe none of these matter to the corals.

I do know that the husbandry requirements would be a good idea to follow whether you use the system or not.

 

[PUGroyale]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7708314#post7708314 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DrBDC
The one test I did see started at day 4-60 IIRC and there was a considerable aluminum release from the zeolites but maybe one of the other components counteracted that or who knows maybe aluminum levels don't matter. There was another element that was debated too but I don't recall whether it was iron or ?? And maybe none of these matter to the corals.

That's the same test I was referring to... it was iron and aluminum that showed significant levels of depletion within the rock over the test period. The two most common PO4 binders

 

[icliao]

Can any ZeoVit user tell me if I can use ZeoVit if my tank has 4 ppm NO3. (In my 200GL)
Can it bring down NO3 to 0?

 

[Eric Boerner]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7708314#post7708314 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DrBDC
I don't think there is really a debate about whether it works or not. The only question is "what is it"? Odds are that it is readily available for a much cheaper price, thus the secrecy.

There is no secrecy...

Zeoliths absorb all trace of nutrients, minerals, etc and make your tank completely inert. IE, dead salt water. That is why you need to have a heavy skimmer, to skim all the crap out that the Zeoliths destroy.

If you did nothing else but that, your corals would bleach.

But, the system requires you to put back in, what you basically just took out, but in the dosages that 'they' recommend. IE, use more of their product. Much of the stuff thats put back in, is what you can find in many other products.

Weiss' Bactervital, Oxystart is the ZeoBak and ZeoLife for instance. All the supliments are basicaly regular chems that you can get from any marine distro (Kent has them all).

So, as everyone has stated so far... The Zeo system works, however, you can get the same results from many differant ways. But the Zeo system can be relatively devistating if you mess up, or just don't know what you're doing in the first place. Whereas nutrient export from standard ecosystem means, then 'nessisary' dosing can be MUCH more forgiving if you foul up.

 

[icliao]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7712305#post7712305 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Eric Boerner
There is no secrecy...

Zeoliths absorb all trace of nutrients, minerals, etc and make your tank completely inert. IE, dead salt water. That is why you need to have a heavy skimmer, to skim all the crap out that the Zeoliths destroy.

If you did nothing else but that, your corals would bleach.

But, the system requires you to put back in, what you basically just took out, but in the dosages that 'they' recommend. IE, use more of their product. Much of the stuff thats put back in, is what you can find in many other products.

Weiss' Bactervital, Oxystart is the ZeoBak and ZeoLife for instance. All the supliments are basicaly regular chems that you can get from any marine distro (Kent has them all).

So, as everyone has stated so far... The Zeo system works, however, you can get the same results from many differant ways. But the Zeo system can be relatively devistating if you mess up, or just don't know what you're doing in the first place. Whereas nutrient export from standard ecosystem means, then 'nessisary' dosing can be MUCH more forgiving if you foul up.

I understand the risk involved, but still curious to compare the result I will be getting. I will try it in my small tank before consider it in my main system.

 

[MiddletonMark]

That's the best plan if you want to try, IMO.

Not a perfect test experiment on the system, but if you're tempted it's a way to avoid risking your tank.

To me, I'm not willing to risk the tank I've invested in [time and money] and grown for 3+ years. As I'd like to keep my current corals for the next decade or more, I'm not willing to risk messing with a currently [IMO] successful system to potentially be slightly happier. It seems to me, your tank is quite successful already as well, you obviously have spent a lot of time designing, testing, and caring for it.

While I wouldn't discourage experimenting with new methods, I would set up a small tank to try it on instead of the main tank.

At very least, it's a cheaper way to try the system and a way to learn how to get it running right, watch it's progression before applying it to a larger volume and far more coral colonies. If there would be any risk, learning more about the system first [by running it on another tank with less invested] might help you avoid problems when adding it to your `big tank'.

Personally, there's other ideas I want to experiment with before this one, but that's my plan, not yours.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do

 

[kevensquint]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7708108#post7708108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chadfarmer
do you believe everything these experts say about everything

About reefing...yes. What is the alternative, my own experiences and other reefers that may have one day or 20 years of experience, who knows. These experts have studied in this field and written many books. I see absolutly no better source for info on this hobby.

 

[Eric Boerner]

Heh... yeah, only choices in this hobby is to listen to 'the experts', or listen 10,000 'opinions' of other hobbiests on this forum, or... listen to the companies who's sole purpose is to pry more $$$ out of your hands.