Zoa/paly ID project -- Open discussion for possibilities

[DEEC77]

Additionally, I personally would enjoy knowing the origin/classification of my polyps - not because I'm looking to sell them for extraordinarily high prices, but simply because as a biologist it is something that I enjoy knowing. Does everything here in the zoanthid forum have to only be for the benefit of the newbies who are having problems? Is it bad if we, more experienced hobbiests wish to take our reef-keeping to the next level? I guess for me personally, its similar to others who are interested in keeping fish - If I try to keep a colder water Atlantic wrasse with a warmer water Pacific wrasse are both going to thrive in my aquarium. Why not? The simply fact is that not all polyps come from the same water conditions, therefore, they are not all going to thrive under the same water conditions.

I agree with this in principal. Perhaps a section for the advancement of Zoanthid keeping. Something along those lines would certainly be interesting. It could include a variety of topics ie troubleshooting, origins, classification, and advances in the hobby and how they could potentially effect Zoanthids . So who wants at it? If there's no takers there's no reason we can't discuss all of this within the forum or revive the Zoanthid discussion thread

~Dee~

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I think someone should just go ahead and do it. Again, afterwards and in the mean time, everyone please come back to this forum and...

1. Create a thread.

2. Participate in the discussions.

3. Share something you're doing, have done, want to do, need to do or have learned from this forum.

4. Give back more than just a picture, a name and request for an ID.

5. Assist with answering the many unanswered questions.


That's all I'm suggesting.

Another question...will classification help with all the supposably aquacultured frags which have already adapted in our systems?

OR

Will classification only matter with wild caught mother colonies?



Yes my friend, I am highly concerned about the newbies. Not calling newbies babies, but the perfect analogy would be that babies need help until they learn how to walk, adults don't. Newbies, as they are the reefers of tomorrow, need to know the basics which will make their reefkeeping experience a positive one. I have seen far too many reefers who have jumped in and fell out of reefing within weeks. Classification doesn't help a newbie who doesn't test his parameters and dozens of other variables in reefing. OG's on the other hand, have or I should say, they should have far more knowledge then those newbies by now and classification might be of some benefit to them education wise, but not to the guy who can't even keep his parameters in check.

It is being purported that this list is going to be the answer to all the issues being posted in this forum. All I'm saying it that that simply is not true. Nothing, nothing can replace picking up a book or buying one, reading, researching these forums, speeding some time on Google, Q & A and day to day experience in reefing. Being successful in reefing is not an event, it's a journey. Some think it happens overnight, and it doesn't. Not speaking to you either Scopus, LOL:lol2:

Though polyps may come from slightly different depths, water temps, currents levels and types and nutrient levels etc, how will the list accommodate polyps from multiple regions in that one system? This is why I said, unless you have 20 colonies, all from the exact same region, classification isn't going to make a bit of difference in my opinion. On the other hand, information derived from the many talented reefers in this forum who have posted time tested information from their own experiences here, will exceed the expectations of this forum. It's no guarantee, as no two systems are alike, but it is a major barometer.

I agree, species is nearly impossible. Origin can be done by anyone who is willing to take the time out to do ample searching. We have a list and site for names and pictures, we have a list on value and prices, we have list which claim this or that is rare, LE ( which doesn't exist ) and a list somewhere on lieneage. All of which are used and abused by sellers. We will now add another list to that list . So I will end by saying, I think you should do it. I think sellers will rush here and add it to their list of descriptions to increase sales revenue and bottom lines across the country. However at this juncture, I think someone should go ahead and make it happen. :thumbsup:

I think this was a great discussion, wow and glad we all could stay civil even if and when we disagreed. 2 thumbs up everyone :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Mucho Reef

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I will be posting a thread on the revamping of the Zoanthid Information Database soon. Been working onit for a while, I think it's time as it seriously needs updating.

Mooch

 

[kichimark]

eh, someone start it already. Maybe have a disclaimer in bold on top saying this will not help with everything, etc etc.

I do like the idea of knowing where they came from and possible natural habitat niches.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I agree with this in principal. Perhaps a section for the advancement of Zoanthid keeping. Something along those lines would certainly be interesting. It could include a variety of topics ie troubleshooting, origins, classification, and advances in the hobby and how they could potentially effect Zoanthids . So who wants at it? If there's no takers there's no reason we can't discuss all of this within the forum or revive the Zoanthid discussion thread

~Dee~

I think someone should just go do the list, all minds have spoken.

Someone should throw out one now and lets see what we all come up with to get this rolling.

 

[XSharkboyX]

Why dont we channel our collective energy on something far more useful, like rebuilding the zoanthid information draft, and a part can be added on "origin" if the community collectively thinks it will be of value...

 

[XSharkboyX]

as a biologist it is something that I enjoy knowing.

I had no idea you were a biologist. Thats awesome. Where did you go to school my friend? Why don't you guide us in this endeavor...

 

[Scopus Tang]

Why dont we channel our collective energy on something far more useful, like rebuilding the zoanthid information draft, and a part can be added on "origin" if the community collectively thinks it will be of value...

More than happy to help with this, but IME, this is generally a one person job. It involvoes devising a classification system and then digging through the old threads page by page to determine what goes into which classification area. Perhaps if Mucho wants to share his classification areas, each interested person could take a particular area and beginning digging their way back through the threads. Speaking from experience, it is a very slow and time consuming process, and while I'm sure Mucho would appreciate the help, he would have to guide it - perhaps a seperate thread?

I had no idea you were a biologist. Thats awesome. Where did you go to school my friend? Why don't you guide us in this endeavor...

I aquired my B.A. in biology in Portland, OR. While I'm a biologist, what I know about ocean life is learned the same way you all did, research, research, research. That makes my knowledge within this particular area pretty limited; living here in Wyoming, I almost never see transhipped corals, so my knowledge of origins is limited to what I see published on the forums, and what I've been able to gleem through my own research. IMO, somebody like Organism who actually sees the colonies coming in is probably most suited to be the one to guide this particular topic. Then perhaps we all can contribute information on issues, disease, etc. with the particular groups that we are familiar with. I know that I've done a very extensive thread on dips and proper dipping methods, as has Sir Patrick.

 

[Scopus Tang]

I agree, species is nearly impossible. Origin can be done by anyone who is willing to take the time out to do ample searching. We have a list and site for names and pictures, we have a list on value and prices, we have list which claim this or that is rare, LE ( which doesn't exist ) and a list somewhere on lieneage. All of which are used and abused by sellers. We will now add another list to that list . So I will end by saying, I think you should do it. I think sellers will rush here and add it to their list of descriptions to increase sales revenue and bottom lines across the country. However at this juncture, I think someone should go ahead and make it happen. :thumbsup:

Mucho Reef

Mucho my friend, you keep saying there is no such thing as an LE polyp, I just have to disagree. And to prove my point, I'll even post a picture. . .














































Here it comes, my very own, one of a kind LE polyp . . .




































Ready?!
























Taduh! The LE Green Herbie paly;

Couldn't resist. Just trying to lighten the mood LOL.

 

[XSharkboyX]

From what has been said I don't think Mucho is for this idea... I highly doubt he wants to put the work into it...
I could be wrong...

 

[DEEC77]

From what has been said I don't think Mucho is for this idea... I highly doubt he wants to put the work into it...
I could be wrong...

I tend to agree. Besides I thought he's working on revising the Zoanthid Information Database.

~Dee~

 

[IridescentLily]

Anyone ??

Both would benefit. Because of the simple fact that any knowledge gained is good. Yes?

Who would it matter to? To the nerdy anal, OCD ones. I.E.
1. those who be interested in an interspecies aquascaping plan.
2. Or maybe to someone who wishes to learn more about particular depth and lighting needs of a particular species.
3. Perhaps to see what various orange ones I can try to obtain and grow.
4. Maybe someone has a moment of boredom from work and would like to study Palythoa and zoanthid to see if they can really see what the difference is.
I can even see myself doing a couple of these things.
Why you asked?
Because I'm a nerd. Get over it.


*snort*

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Of course ANY knowledge gained is good, that's a given in any forum and in life in general, but that is not the question. As it relates to the issue we are discussing and the problems this list is purported to solve, tell me, how will knowing their classification help with any of the issues this list is said to solve and resolve? That is the specific question I ask.

The second question also still stands.

Everything you mentioned in 1 thru 4 will mean nothing, ( no, not cutting you down, just making a point ), absolutely nothing to the reefer who doesn't know how vital internal current is in a reef tank. It means nothing to the reefer who can't even keep them alive. No list, no nothing will matter unless we first begin to answer, discuss and delve into all the topics you see on this page. I'll say it one last time as I think you missed it, any knowledge is good, but this list is not a cure all. I have also said more than once, please, somebody go ahead and create this list, then come back to the forum and assist with the rest of this forum. I can't say it enough and any louder than that. :lol2:

There are thousands of morphs in the ocean, let's say you narrow them by class, then Reefer A said he placed them high in his tank with his lighting scheme and his specific parameters, and Reefer B did the same thing with good success. Does that mean that if Reefer C and D did the same thing, they too would have the same results? It doesn't work that way and if you ask any reefer who has kept an enormous number of mature colonies and not frags, they will tell you the same. NO, NO, NO, and definitely not if one reefer is new and one has 15 years of experience. No, not if one is testing weekly and the other isn't. No, not if one of these reefers is dealing with Allelopathy and it is the reason his polyps are dying and he has no idea what it is as he is focusing on the Classification list to guide his reef keeping practices. No, not if he doesn't know the first thing about the proper protocols which need to be adhered to with all new arrivals. No, it won't matter if a reefers is still checking his salinity with a 1979 mom and pop hydrometer in a tank with $ 2,000 worth of zoanthids. NO, it won't mean a single thing to the reefer who has 4 large Emerald Crabs and Sally Lightfoots and doesn't know why his polyps disappeard. No, not if he keeps buying 1 polyp frags on solid white plugs which aren't properly cut, healed and/or shipped and he still can't figure out why they keep dying. I could go on for another page, but again, he will have a classification list to read and it won't help with a single issue I just listed above, not one. He will know their names, what colors he/she has, he will know the lineage from Peter Polyp Pimper, he can look and learn all of these while bored at work, but will a Sci. Class. list save his tank and keep his polyps alive, thriving etc? That is what's being presented here and that is the problem I have. I just wish the energy and vigor presented in this thread over a list, can be brought to the entire forum on a daily basis.

So I say, somebody please, create the list :wavehand:, my opinions can't stop it nor can anyone else's, we're just stating our opinion on a question put to the forum. My point stands, information of any kind on any topic in any forum for any cause is great. Just make it clear to everyone that this list is not a problem solver by any means, it is merely for knowledge purposes as no two system are the same.

Organism wrote "A thread like that would have everyone arguing about how theirs is different/not different in no time..."

"Thing is the vast majority of zoanthids have the same or similar needs, all of which can be found by searching the forums, and most don't look like the "original" in most tanks. There's no specific need for each specific zoanthid, it would just be a marketplace where everyone that has available frags posts pictures under the guise of information.

The links submitted in post # 45 are extremely valuable. I hope everyone checks them out.

"If they looked fantastic on the sand bed, and then you moved them and started looking bleached, then by listening to your corals you already had an answer"

"Every tank is going to be different, one person's "high" pc light intensity might be another guy's bottom-of-the-tank-in-the-shade 400w 20k halide intensity. What thrives in one guy's tank might melt in the same spot in another person's tank. Temperature, water chemistry and salinity can have a huge impact on how much light a coral can use, and it's up to each hobbyist to know their individual tank, or to use the search engine when it doubt. "

"If we did a thread on where each specific zoanthid in a tank will thrive, we might as well continue down the more harm than good path and do one on "what's the best weight to thrive?". That way we can all agree that the best weight humans can thrive is 180lbs, because that's what works for me, so everyone should start there regardless of any individual variables."

DEEC77 wrote

"There are hundreds of ways to run a successful reef. What works for one may not work for all. I started my tank as a FOWLR about 12 years ago. My tank is very old school and hands on, but it works for me. Would I suggest you run your system the same way absolutely not."


"Every system is different but the one constant in a any successful system is stability. If your perimeters are stable you'll more then likely be successful. No name required."

With nothing more than slight flucuations, I agree Dee

"I'm really confused here. We have an ID section already where people come in and ask does this polyp have a "name". So if they need care info why not just ask there. Or perhaps while IDing, include in your answer, it's basic care."

All of post 35 :thumbsup:

"I keep thinking about it and a species or origin guide is really not going to help much, a troubleshooting guide would be much better. The main thing that makes zoanthids have issues isn't certain species needing certain conditions, it's them coming into the tank with some kind of problem. "


All of the above post carry an awful lot of extremely helpful information. Nothing against anyone elses post.


1. A species is going to be nearly impossible.

2. Scientific Classification - I think those who are for it should collectively begin the process of sifting through every page of this forum and possibly others, searching the internet, seeking assistance from others who support this, contact Rokie for his assistance, contact i2as kass where the idea originated, and then start the process.

3. The question was presented for opinions and feedback, we have received an abundance of them. I think someone should led the way and I hope it goes well.:beer:


April, there's nothing to get over, it's an opinion, we were all ask to share them if we had one. :wavehand: SNORT !!!

BTW, I know you and you're not OCD, LOL


Hey, nice weather we are having today huh?


Mucho Reef

 

[Scopus Tang]

From what has been said I don't think Mucho is for this idea... I highly doubt he wants to put the work into it...
I could be wrong...

I tend to agree. Besides I thought he's working on revising the Zoanthid Information Database.

~Dee~

I either was not clear, or you didn't read my post very well . Either way, what I was suggesting was for Mucho to start a new/seperate thread on the Zoanthid Information Draft if he wanted some help with revising the Zoanthid Information Database.

Also, for what its worth, I will likely be closing my existing account and starting a new one within the next few days. Cheers all.

 

[BlueCorn]

Everything you mentioned in 1 thru 4 will mean nothing, ( no, not cutting you down, just making a point ), absolutely nothing to the reefer who doesn't know how vital internal current is in a reef tank. It means nothing to the reefer who can't even keep them alive. No list, no nothing will matter unless we first begin to answer, discuss and delve into all the topics you see on this page.

I think, that perhaps, that is the biggest load of tripe I've ever read.

You seem to have an incredibly difficult time wrapping your head around anything (or anyone) that doesn't think exactly like you do. What makes the world, and this hobby, interesting is the fact that we're all unique individuals. We also all learn differently. Your assumptions are way off the mark, and greatly responsible for the lack of participation in this forum. People who don't agree with you are afraid to post. Those that do post, but don't follow your thinking exactly, get beaten down and don't come back.

Relax, open up your mind a bit and you might be surprised what happens.

Cheers

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I think, that perhaps, that is the biggest load of tripe I've ever read.

You seem to have an incredibly difficult time wrapping your head around anything (or anyone) that doesn't think exactly like you do. What makes the world, and this hobby, interesting is the fact that we're all unique individuals. We also all learn differently. Your assumptions are way off the mark, and greatly responsible for the lack of participation in this forum. People who don't agree with you are afraid to post. Those that do post, but don't follow your thinking exactly, get beaten down and don't come back.

Relax, open up your mind a bit and you might be surprised what happens.

Cheers

Don't know what tripe is.

I have absolutely no issue, problem whatsoever with this issue. It's a discussion with opinions on both sides. Again, if you read the title of this thread, it solicted opinions. I submitted my opinion. You don't know me and you are completely off base. I'm not here to have others agree with me, I'm here just like you and everyone else, to give, learn, share and help, period. Your comment, though extremly rude, do not bother me at all as they do not pertain to me in any way form of fashion.

If you have noticed, there is a ton, I mean a ton of great info here and great reefer participation and I will not allow you or anyone else to label me. No one is or should be afraid of one person, are you serious? If you want to attack me personally, please send me a PM and lets stay on topic here.

I am etremely relaxed, just finished an 8 mile run. Do you care to engage the topic or launch more darts at me my friend? Please advise.

Cheers

 

[IridescentLily]

Dee and Mallorie,
You're not even reading anyone's responses I guess.
Why would anyone want to contribute, clearly it's a three person gang bang against anyone who has a different answer than Mallorie, Dee and Mucho and will be made to feel like a bubblehead, or have my numbered answers be ignored completely.
I think I'm go work more on this list, instead of talking about it for two weeks.
Then im going to post it in the other forum.
Meanwhile, I think you Dee, Mallorie and Mucho, should continue to keep guard to make sure nothing changes here.
Have fun.

 

[BlueCorn]

Don't know what tripe is.

I have absolutely no issue, problem whatsoever with this issue. Again, if you read the title of this thread, it solicted opinions. I submitted my opinion. You don't know me and you are completely off base. I'm not here to have others agree with me, I'm here just like you and everyone else, to give, learn, share and help, period. Your comment, though extremly rude do not bother me at all as they do not pertain to me in any way form of fashion.

If you have noticed, there is a ton, I mean a ton of great info here and great reefer participation and I will not allow you or anyone else to label me. No one is or should be afraid of one person, are you serious? If you want to attack me personally, please send me a PM and lets stay on topic here.

I am etremely relaxed, just finished an 8 mile run. Do you care to engage the topic or launch more darts at me my friend? Please advise.

Cheers

Thank you for, so eloquently, making my point. You're diatribe was dismissed as your honest opinion yet my honest opinion was referred to a "dart."

I wouldn't have expected any other response.

Cheers

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Thank you for, so eloquently, making my point. You're diatribe was dismissed as your honest opinion yet my honest opinion was referred to a "dart."

I wouldn't have expected any other response.

Cheers

No diatribe my friend, and I'm not going to disrespect you.

I think we should move towards creating the Scientific Classification list. I think April and others here are qualified to do this. I think that will end the debate. It was a great discussion for sure.

Mucho Reef

 

[mallorieGgator]

Dee and Mallorie,
You're not even reading anyone's responses I guess.
Why would anyone want to contribute, clearly it's a three person gang bang against anyone who has a different answer than Mallorie, Dee and Mucho and will be made to feel like a bubblehead, or have my numbered answers be ignored completely.
I think I'm go work more on this list, instead of talking about it for two weeks.
Then im going to post it in the other forum.
Meanwhile, I think you Dee, Mallorie and Mucho, should continue to keep guard to make sure nothing changes here.
Have fun.

Thanks for the mature personal attack Abril. It's cool though. I have read this thread and agree with things and disagree with things I was just stating my opinion. That does not mean people have to take it. Ooo three people against it and you are saying we are against everyone? What ever happened to " let's agree to disagree"? I'm not telling anyone to not do it. I just am not sure of the point of a origins guide to use to cure tank ailments. I would like an origin guide with photos of wild zoas and their environment. I think that would be cool. However it will be very difficult and time consuming. Instead of making personal attacks maybe you should be using some of that energy making the origins guide.