Zoanthids are they toxic?

[Precious Roy]

I'm also sorry to hear about your dog, and thanks for posting this. I had no idea that they were that toxic. I'll make sure that I tell everyone in the LFS where I work, and any customers. Was your dog a beagle? I got one that likes to sit around me when I'm working on my tank. I know what you mean by them putting their head everywhere, and now I don't think I want to keep zoo's in my tank. Very sorry to hear about the loss.

 

[luntiz]

Do all Zoanthids have the same potent amount of toxins? I have a dwarf angel that eats them by the mouthful without any negative effects....?

 

[Nagel]

Do all Zoanthids have the same potent amount of toxins? I have a dwarf angel that eats them by the mouthful without any negative effects....?

Nope, some aren't toxic, some are. I prefer to treat them as if they all were..

And some animals can be immune to the toxin, some (the nudibranches) even use the toxins for their own defense.

 

[luntiz]

Ah, thanks for the information.

 

[JeBuS]

very sorry for ur loss
i touch everything in my tank
i think im going to be a bit more carefull

 

[jpslickorocks]

I lost a dog to poison a few years ago. Not aquarium related but I now have a new dog and a new aquarium with zoo's. So I thank you very much for this post.

Jeremy


Every time I look at my tank...
I get hungry
Sushi's good
Help me jebus!!!!!!

 

[jman77]

Sorry about your loss.

 

[wayne in norway]

Some people need to red further up the thread. Angelfish can eat them with impunity, humans cannot. This situation is not unusual.

Crazylionfish - if they have an effect on a large dog they will have an effect on you, unless you weigh 300 pounds plus I guess. I have had my tongue go numb and get the metallic poison taste and I am damn careful with my tank now when fiddling with zo's. That's not to say to say I avoid them, but I wash my hands afterwards and don't touch them with cut fingers. There's plenty of research out there on palytoxins if you go and look.

You don't have to have a hysterical response to acknowledge these things are likely toxic to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[Snipe]

Better yet ALWAYS were gloves in the tank!

 

[petermai]

first off, i truly feel for you loss and this piece of information really freaks me out. i am new to reefing and just tonight, i handled my zoo's barehanded but i did not touch any of them, it had been well over 8 hours now so i'm hoping i'm in the clear. thanks for the message though.

 

[petermai]

first off, i truly feel for you loss and this piece of information really freaks me out. i am new to reefing and just tonight, i handled my zoo's barehanded but i did not touch any of them, it had been well over 8 hours now so i'm hoping i'm in the clear. thanks for the message though.

 

[Sheol]

A couple of months ago, I had to re-position some zoa's after my urban renewal squad (hermit crabs) came by. Got some mucus in a cut I guess. Well, let's say I didn't feel much with that hand for a couple of weeks. Knocked the nerves off-line as it were. Hurt like heck when they woke up, BTW.
I'm much more careful now!

Matthew

 

[NanoCube-boy]

do it contaminate the tank water? what are the symtoms?

 

[adtravels]

Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin.

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

Quote from above website appers to be mistaken
sorry about the dog

 

[Rodness]

I am sorry about the loss of your dog, but I am skeptical that your dog died of Palytoxin ingestion due to eating Zoanthids.

First off, Palythoa toxica is a VERY rare zoanthid that is not found in the reef trade, period. It isn't imported, nor is it common. As a matter of fact, finding super toxic specimens is a rare find and are found in a small few areas of the Pacific.

I think the dog story is a case of assigning the wrong causation to the death. More likely the dog ate something in the parking lot, not a zoanthid rock.

Tetrodotoxin (TTX) is a more common toxin found in marine animals. I believe the documented cases of poisoning with fugu, but these zoanthids stories just do not fly. Nowhere can I find a schred of hard evidence (hospital records, official toxicity reports, etc) to confirm these stories. With all the worldwide trade in zoanthids, where are all the stories??

I especially do NOT believe the nudibranch story. He talked of plucking nudibranches out like they were flatworms. Who has ever seen a nudibranch infestation? Ever?


Classic cases of medical conspiracy stories to get the public riled up. Quite believable, especially with all the timeline details.. but I say most likely just not accurate.

 

[Kreeger1]

I was there when he got the call about his dog, I'd say without a doubr it was from the zoo's
Without a doubt
Erik

 

[CeeGee]

I especially do NOT believe the nudibranch story. He talked of plucking nudibranches out like they were flatworms. Who has ever seen a nudibranch infestation? Ever?

There is another guy around here that smashed one of these nudibranchs with his finger and got really really ill and had to go to the emergency room.

Maybe you should go eat some zoanthids and let us know how it goes.

I can't believe someone would come on here and basically say "hey you are a liar, your dog that was perfectly fine that ate some zoanthids probably died from something else because I haven't seen anything other than your word to back it up."

Your post is extremely rude and uncalled for. You wouldn't happen to make your living by selling zoanthids would you?

 

[Rodness]

No, I do not make my living selling zoanthids, but I have worked at a lab that did testing for toxic substances on blood, tissue, etc. Palytoxin is being used in cancer research right now as well.. and I happen to know a bit about marine toxins in general through my training.

I am NOT calling him a liar, I am just stating that sometimes what we think caused the death of something actually turns out to be quite different than what our "intuition" tells us. I know its a loved one, but be careful how quickly you assign causation. Examine the exact toxin/cause of death and I will believe it.

Now, can a dog die of Palytoxin? Absolutely. Do I think this dog died of Palytoxin? No.

Why? I would ask these questions. How long was the show? Did the dog spend many hours at this aquarium show? Did he possibly ingest a crab, small fish, or chunk of algae?

Reason I ask is because TTX poisoning is SO much more common in reef animals. Palytoxins are ultra rare, with most zoanthids in the pet trade (even 99% of the live caught) containing small amounts of this poison and no other organism carry Palytoxin. Actually its a very very particular type of Palythoa that contains the toxin in measurable quantities.

I suggest the dog might have eaten a small pufferfish, a seastar, boxfish, goby, or some other animal that stores TTX.

Guys, one of the first things they teach in marine biology is how common marine toxins are, and also how potent. But they usually don't even mention Palytoxin, because of how rare it is.



SO MANY animals at a reef show, if ingested (especially!) will cause toxicity in animals, humans, dogs, cats, whatever.

The skin on your hands usually will protect you from these toxins, just like snake venom. Just don't get it in cuts, scrapes, and mucus membranes.

Dogs (who eat practically anything with caloric value) will ingest things (like small crabs and stars) that fall on the ground. That is where TTX could have killed him.

I bet very very few people on Reefcentral understand TTX, how common is it in the marine ecosystem, and how much more likely TTX would be a culprit in the death of a dog at a Marine show.

Sorry to **** anyone off, it was not my intention.

 

[mr pink floyd]

this is one of the first thereads i ever saw on RC broke my heart, i have 2 dogs myself, bu iam not doign zoos because of this, and i am not going to frag zoos if i ever have them

 

[mr pink floyd]

rod, the dog wasnt at the show, the dog was at his house