5000g+ breeding system build

[xfury]

Well as the saying goes: If you are gonna go, go all out. That is exactly what I am doing. For about 14 years now I have had the honor of having some 25 different aquaria and have no decided I would like to make a living doing what I love. I will be starting my build in the begining of March and I figured I could use this time between now and then to get some advice from some less than novice breeders on my system setup. Initally I would like to start off with the easier fish, clowns, gobies, corals, etc. However as time and money allows, I am really interested in finding a way to breed fish that cannot normally be breed in captivity as I am a firm beleiver that what is in the ocean should stay in the ocean. (I may not succeed, but I sure will give it a go.)

Back to the point. I am currently in the process of designing an expandable setup so that I may use a common filtation system for all the tanks with exception to possibly the fry tanks. I will be starting with fish display unit that my local Wal-Mart is going to be getting rid of. It may or may not be a good set-up but I am not going to argue with the price and thus I will make it work for now.

There are several topics I am interested in getting opinions on:
1. I am interested in routing the return water from the tanks through the coral propigation tanks to allow the filter feeders to have a go at what ever the fish don't eat.
2. Whether I should or should not have the fry tanks running off the same water as the rest of the system to eliminate the need to aclimate the delicate little fishies to new water. I would like to see it from both points of view, sterile water vs. system water with control measuers in place (i.e. UV, ozone, etc.)
3. I am looking for an ideal size for a grow out tanks and I am also thinking that fiberglass tanks might be my best option from a cost perspective.
4. Design of my filtration unit. On this one all I can say is I am not going to spend $30,000 on a protein skimmer to handle a 5000g setup. I am definately looking for any possilbe way around this which would include building one. Same goes for other equipment as well. With that being said, I also plan to keep the system as automated as possible(i.e. auto top off, computer controled calcium reactor, pH, mineral dosing, etc.) to keep human error out of the equation I have a few ideas on how I am going to do my filtration and I will post them at a later time.

I most defiately appreciate any opinions you might have.

 

[aomont]

Welcome xfury !

I´m not part of the "less than novice breeders" but I´d like to comment on your post learn together.

The way to go seems to be separate systems broodstock, larvae and grow-out (I´ll go this way when building mine). Larvae tank can be on a system but should be able to stand alone at the beggining (beggining can be short or very long depending on the species).

Regarding larvae acclimation, parents water can help although if larvae tank water is kept in similar conditions as the parents water you´d better split them.

Although keeping some fishes in a coral system can help on corals development and algae control, the amount of fish and fish food we´re talking about would be greater than you´d want to handle. Keep water proper conditions for the corals would be far more expensive and such a high controled water chemistry may not be needed by the fishes. So, I´d split them again I were you.

I´m looking forward to your filtration and DIY ideas. I plan to keep everything as cheap and at lower wattage as I can without compromising filtration quality.

Good luck and welcome again !

Anderson.

 

[lessthanlights]

Have you considered using ten 500 gallon systems instead of one 5000 gallon system? If something goes wrong: disease, crash, equipment failure, ect. you could loose EVERYTHING.

 

[David M]

Welcome to RCFBF ! Normally we're a supportive group but I have a feeling yer not gonna be thrilled about your introduction

I most defiately appreciate any opinions you might have.

Uhh... yer not gonna like mine

I can think of a about a zillion reasons why that design is not such a good idea. Trying to prop coral and house broodstock fish in the same system? What temp would you run it at? What SG? pH? What about water quality, you are gonna want to feed those fish to saturation. You gonna try to hold nitrates to a minimum? What I am suggesting is that the "optimal" environment for the coral is not going to be conducive to breeding, and vice versa.

Beyond that most breeders have found that seperate systems for broodstock and grow out are pretty much mandatory. Then you are going to have either isolated larval tanks or a small central filtration system for them as well.

Basically I think it would far less expensive and more productive to have 4 seperate systems; coral prop, broodstock, larval and growout. Fish don't care about some yellow water and a few nitrates, why filter the whole system to the level required by the corals when you don't have to? Salt is expensive, the fish do not need to be kept at NSW salinity levels and the larvae will actually do better if they are not. Broodstock & growout will be most productive at 82-84F, are the corals gonna like that? Sooner or later you will have to medicate the fish for something. How is the coral going to feel about that? Also it's really tough to keep pH up in a system heavily loaded with heavily fed fish.

I dunno man, it just sounds counterproductive to me. It's going to be cheaper, easier and more productive to go with seperate systems IMO.

 

[billsreef]

I breed fish professionally for a University lab. Everything these guy's have mentioned so far is right on the money. Especially the part about divvying things into separate systems. A major fish breeding system and coral system would not do well on the same circuit. However, you can conserve water by using water change water from a coral system as the replacement water for water changes on the fish system You also don't want to have all your stock in one system. No matter how well run and how well designed a system is, there will be problems ranging from minor to catastrophic. Having separate and redundant systems will prevent wipe out of broodstock and larval stocks in even of the catastrophes

 

[xfury]

Well it looks like I came to the right place. I am by far no expert on this matter as you all can see. I've taken many of the suggestions and will be re-thinking my plans. But I will admit, I hadn't thought about plans for system failure or the need for backup equipment other than power failures. But that is why I came here first instead of jumping right into the build. I would like to get it right as close to the first time as possible. Thinking about it, it does make more sense from a cost perspictive too not having to buy all the huge equipment for the huge systems. And FYI I am absolutely thrilled about my introduction. You may save me thousands of dollars in dissapointment and frustration.

Josh

 

[mwp]

HOFF's BOOK - Conditioning, Spawning and Rearing of Fish with Emphasis on Marine Clownfish. A MUST READ for a person in your situation. Follow that up with Wilkerson's book (or maybe start with her easier read first?). And of course, watch the FBF forum religiously!

Welcome aboard!

MP

 

[mwp]

Sorry, one other book you'll need - Hoff & Snell's Plankton Culture Manual!

Matt

 

[mwp]

BTW, perhaps a better way to recycle your water (based on my tentative steps thus far) - bleach sterilized water has so far worked well for Phytoplankton culturing...

There is SOOOOO much info to absorb and consider

Matt

 

[tanglovers]

Matt is right on, the pair of Hoff books mentioned are very helpful. A little to get through but packed with information. I just got these recently (anniversary present) and they are great. It is geared more commercial but even the small hobbyist can get alot out of it....5,000 gallons doubt that is a hobby at that point

Good Luck!

 

[clownfish75]

My best surgestion is you need to have a good budget for the system then double it, if this is way out of your rang, shrink the system, take it from someoen who has been there and done it.

5000gal is huge thats heaps and heaps and heaps of fish, you would have to have a great market knowledge to shift that many clownfish.

In hoffs book about clown breeding he lists reaosns why his operation closed all those years ago, one being to big and ot heavy in wages. His surgestion is start small and grow, but dont limit ones self by lack of space.

very very wise words for someone doing things like this, build a top rate brrodstock system, then a high nitrate management growout system and just grow them as space is needed and more fish come online.

ther eis no point haveing 30 different species if you only have 2 prs of clownfish makeing you money, better to have 10 prs clowns and 2 dottybacks and balance your sales. unless of course you want the ultimate fish collection!!!!

good chance to get in on a breeding challenge too!!!

Christian

 

[ediaz]

Do a search for books from Pedro Ramon Escobal on aquatic/aquaculture systems set up.

Ed

 

[David M]

Hey Josh, tell us what kind of space you have to work with. Garage / basement or actual commercial warehouse? Insulated? Heat source? Square footage / dimensions? Celing height? Existing lighting? Electrical supply? Plumbing supply / drain? Generator?

What about tools and the skills to use them? Framing, plumbing, electrical- you need to wear as many hats as you can to avoid paying people to do things for you.

And your start up budget? Be honest here, don't be shy. If it is modest we can help, we are masters of making silk purses out of sow's ears

You might want to start with coral prop system, get it going first. That is most likely the quickest way to get a revenue stream going. Collecting quality broodstock pairs takes time, you can house some in the prop system as you collect while building the broodstock system. You can make the BS system redundant and expandable so you don't have to build more than you need, expand as you go.

Location is key, yours is probably not ideal. Realize that with a single good pair of ocellaris clowns you will quickly saturate your local market, plan to ship. This means you will have to include a packing station in your shop.

Can you enlist any family members for help? You want to avoid employees for as long as possible, forever if you can. On the scale you envision it will NOT be a one man job. If you are not already active in a local reef club get involved NOW. Make friends. One thing I have learned, peple bend over backwards to help with captive breeding projects, everyone believes in it but noone has the time for it. If you show dedication to the cause they will rally around and help you. A case of beer and a couple of pizzas go a long way on major project days

This is gonna be fun, keep us posted

 

[aomont]

Does anyone know a place where i can buy Escobal book for the price Amazon had listed before running out of it (40,00) ? Everybody is asking 400,00....

Anderson.

 

[MimicTang]

Yeah muiltple single systems would be better. 1 disease outbreak and you'll be crying.

 

[xfury]

Well for starters... I am going to start out with a 27 tank system that the local Wal-Mart will be getting rid of. In my opinion it is a rather good freshwater setup with a large capacity heater, chiller and two sumps. Not much plumbing involved except to add a few things here and there, nitrate reducer, calcium reactor, auto top off, RO water storage, etc. Ok so maybe that's more than just a few but I am getting it very cheap and it's not something I am going to pass up since new they are something close to $15000. It will be placed in my garage until probably April. I am currently in the process of clearing all the live stock out of my 55 gallon tank to use as a temporairy home for the first couple pair I get. So far I am favoring ocellaris (sp?) and black and white percs. Sometime in mid april I am having a 6000 square foot steel building put up with a 750-1000 sq ft green house for that natural sunlight that corals love so well. It will be foam insulated This should run me in the neighbor hood of 65k to have constructed start to finish. I would like to have about 33% of my total water volume dedicated to coral production or similar. I am very seriously going to investigate propigating clams and scallops. I know clams have been done and I see beautiful maxima clams that have been aquarium breed all the time. As far as the building goes I will be finishing the inside of it so i can address the needs of the setup. I will be using a hanging ceiling at a height of 13 feet which should give me room to install a chain hoist. you never know when you might not have the extra hands around to lift that 400lb aquarium. Yes there will be a natural gas generator. There is now way I would even consider doing something like this without one. And so you all know... I am a very skilled carpenter, plumber, and I would say electrician but when ever I work with electricity I get shocked so... yeah. But I can still do it right and that is all that matter. As far as the species I intend to produce, clown fish are not going to be the only fish, other good sellers such as damsels and gobis will be in the mix too eventually. If it can be bred in captivity I am going to attempt it and attempt to find a market for it. Speaking of market... you are correct in assuming that there isn't much of a local market for marine fish. Infact... the nearest lfs that carries saltwater fish is 35 miles away. However going a little beyond that, there are several large cities in the area that I would be marketing to with in a 200 mile radius. And of course there is always private sales from only lord knows where. As for my budget... I probably won't get away with throwing down any less than 80k in startup costs including the building, which by the way will also be my place of residence. The only thing that I am unfamiliar with as far as buliding things goes is fiberglass. I would like to build some of my larger growout tanks out of fiberglass. I have seen fiberglass setups for sale and I don't think it would be all that hard to duplicate.

I hope this gives you an idea of what I have to work with thus far. However... there is a small chance that I may be able to aquire a few buildings in our historical down town for far cheaper and would be much larger with possilbly an alternate income with apartments on the second floor, that is if i could ever track down the owner.

 

[illcssd]

fwiw, pure b&w clowns are ocellaris, not percula. Unless your talking about onyx perc's or something.

 

[lessthanlights]

how many fish will you need to sell just to recoup the initial 80k?

 

[xfury]

My mistake. I am shamed. lol. Technically I will not be out the entire 80k, I have a contract for the sale of my house that will be coming up close to the time that the building is completed. That will absorb 65k of the cost. Which would leave me a much more reasonable amount that I would have coming out of pocket.

 

[lessthanlights]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8942788#post8942788 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xfury
[BTechnically I will not be out the entire 80k, I have a contract for the sale of my house that will be coming up close to the time that the building is completed. That will absorb 65k of the cost. Which would leave me a much more reasonable amount that I would have coming out of pocket. [/B]

Yes, but you will still have 80k invested no matter where the money is coming from. Have you crunched the numbers on how long it will take to turn a profit. That's a heck of allot of fish and coral . . . .