A few questions regarding ICH.....

[Jstdv8]

I have mixed feelings about the whole QT thing. I've been doing it for a while now fresh and saltwater. I just recently had some fish in QT for about 6 weeks with no signs of anything wrong. I put them in my DT and within a week, 2 of them have a couple spots on them. Didn't want to treat them in the QT tank if they were not showing signs of anything because I just frankly think its cruel to use copper for no reason.

Well anyway, the fish either had Ich in their gills where I couldnt see or it came in on a cuc I put in the DT right after I put fish in. Either way, I think it would just be too stressful for the fish right now to catch them and put them in QT again. Going to ride it out and see what happens. I make an extreme effort to keep my parameters perfect all the time so I may just be fine.

Why did I bother to QT the new fish in the first place? So I guess the best thing to do is treat all fish as if they have ich? Just doesnt seem right to me. Who knows?

Well now, lets think about this for a second.
Is it cruel to treat a fish in copper "for no reason" when
A. The cuprimine treatment is so mild they likley don't feel anything different at all
B. There is a reason, it's to rid your tanka nd its inhabitants of ich
C. When you didn't use copper you ended up with 2 fish that had ich within a couple weeks of adding them to your DT. Which is worse a mild copper treatment or ich?

And I totally agree, its gonna be stressful on sick fish to catch them and QT them and treat. which is why IMO you should jsut QT everything so you never have to get to this stage of trying to catch sick fish.

 

[Kfig7]

Thats the thing, I have been QT my fish for a long time now. So far for me, 6 weeks in QT without any signs of disease worked for me. Usually if the fish had a problem it would show itself within a few weeks. Just crappy luck this time I guess.

Which is worse a mild copper treatment or ich?

Cant really answer that question. If theres Ich in tank and the fish don't show signs and are doing great, is that a problem? Does copper have any long term effects on fish? Not too sure.

 

[rayn]

This debate is the longest most drawn out debate here I think. I'm in the QT and treat everything. Like is being said, catching the fish is stressful when you discover ich. Why not treat and know you have it taken care of. Fish go through so much before they get to us, that we don't know about. What tank were they held in, how many times were they caught and moved, how many of their own species were they with (when some aren't supposed to be).
Treat it and be gone with it. I would rather do that and have a disease free tank without the worries, then have to hope I feed good enough and keep water quality good enough for them to fend it off. It is my responsibility as their care taker to make their stay with me as pleasant and disease free as possible.

 

[bur01014]

Ich is wayyyyyy overrated....if your fish is dying with ich, I would guess your tank itself doesn't have stable and healthy parameters....ich that takes the life of a fish= unstable water parameters, overstocked tank, extremely thin and unhealthy fish when purchased, stressful tank environment in general.....good luck with your tank, I fear checking this thread again for those that police ich threads will surely overpower me with words and studies of evidence that is neither scientifically sound or valid, with little reliability (repeatable)....

Cheers!

 

[Sk8r]

THere's nothing about a bare qt tank that should kill a fish: they've generally been there before, at the distributors', shippers', etc. What does kill, outside of the disease or parasite they may come in with---is inattention to water quality, daily salinity fluctuation, inattention to chemistry, and unfortunately, and with the greatest good will in the world, ---the inexperience of a new hobbyist who does not know to 1) run AND LOG daily or twice-daily tests for ammonia, nitrate, alkalinity, and salinity; 2) feed very sparingly (do not throw more food at a fish that is not eating) 3) use only ONE treatment at a time for parasites or disease 4) correctly diagnose what is wrong with the fish in the first place 5) seek help BEFORE taking drastic action, and just basically 6) clean the filter daily. Personally, I recommend treating with hypo rather than copper: hypo is easier on the fish, AND it lets you continue to run carbon, which helps cleanse the water of bad biological stuff continually; you have to pull the carbon if you're doing copper (and antibiotics) because carbon interferes with those treatments.
QT is your first skill test, and unfortunately, it tests a large array of things at once---most notably, your record-keeping, your ability to test accurately, and your willingness to do maintenance: a lot of maintenance. A fish in a glass box with no other means of clearing waste than your attention to detail is totally reliant on you to change that filter---and not to overfeed, which is about the most tempting and the most dangerous thing you can do. I fully realize how many new things you're having to cope with at once, and that is why that notebook. For me, after 40 plus years at this, I look at a test, see 1.028, and know that's Trouble. The new guy is looking at it wondering what the good reading is supposed to be. That's what that notebook is for---you have the good reading written down, so you can see what's going on. I do recommend it.

 

[steelhead77]

Ich is wayyyyyy overrated....if your fish is dying with ich, I would guess your tank itself doesn't have stable and healthy parameters....ich that takes the life of a fish= unstable water parameters, overstocked tank, extremely thin and unhealthy fish when purchased, stressful tank environment in general.....good luck with your tank, I fear checking this thread again for those that police ich threads will surely overpower me with words and studies of evidence that is neither scientifically sound or valid, with little reliability (repeatable)....

Cheers!

I'll stand right beside you bur. Let them flame away! So much fear and paranoia and yes, mis-information, over this subject.

 

[gp2]

I must say I am loving this thread. Pretty new to reef central, but I have been getting a microwave education in ich these last 6 weeks or so. I have 3 fish in hypo right now, 3 others that I left in the original tank that I cannot find a spot on, and a new DT that i have put several fish in that sat in the LFS for at least 4 weeks in copper. Kind of goes against being able to buy whatever fish you want, but until I can get my fish out of hypo I do not have a good QT. I really think one of the keys is a BB in the QT/hospital tank. Unfortunately, I did not save them, but I did find several good studies that you reduce the reproduction dramatically with "slick" surfaces in the tank vs a sandbed. Still not 100% sold on the entire QT for 6 weeks idea, but I am going to do it to be on the safe side. For me more will be revealed...

 

[Sk8r]

Re those claiming 'sometimes ich goes away'---this is true. Sometimes a novice reefer has extraordinarily good water and never makes a mistake that throws the alk, salinity, or temperature into the 'bad' zone [which makes fish more susceptible]; and sometimes the infestation is extremely light and doesn't set up shop in the sandbed. Certain species don't get it as bad as others because of the quality of their skin and slime coat (the worst are tangs and angels)---
'Perfect' water in a novice tank that stays perfect continually is quite rare. The odds are double-stacked against you with certain species: certain others (rabbits) are prone to 'carry' the pest into your tank, but often not die of it. A very, very few (dragonets) are so unlikely to carry it, and so hard to feed in quarantine, that many reefers exempt them from qt. In general, we force openwater swimmers like tangs to live far closer to a sandbed than they do in nature: ich spends part of its time in sandbed and rock---and the skin of a tang has no natural defense: a tang can get so infested it's pitiful to see. A dragonet spends all its time on the sand, and is so slimy it's like picking up a handful of warm Jell-o: ich doesn't 'like' dragonets. So, yes, certain tanks, certain fish, certain hobbyists get off easier than others. But you can also lose a fish very rapidly, and have the infestation blaze through your tank like Bubonic Plague. Water conditions are only part of it: fish source is another---the fish can arrive in weakened condition, starving and already on the edge.
Think of ich as marine fleas. Sometimes you see an animal with one or two, and that's already not good. But in other situations it turns into a whole-house infestation, in which they're in the carpet and everywhere, and (in the case of ich) ---you lose the whole tank. When that happens, it's an 8-week downtime for the tank. And you know how hard it was waiting for your tank to cycle. 8 weeks is not a happy time, besides that you've lost all your pretty fish, and you have that unhappiness.
So take your precautions. I agree with bare bottom in the qt tank: NO rock, NO sand. Put in a piece of fat PVC pipe for a fish to call a rock and hang out in, for his mental health and relaxation: keep the light dim in there, so the fish can rest---the lights are good when you're doing your daily examination, but they're for you, not the fish's convenience. And do your log and maintenance.

 

[Sk8r]

RC's doing double posts today. [sigh.]

 

[charo]

enjoying this thread, even though its extremely controversial, its very informative, thanks

 

[RocketSurgeon]

following along

 

[Jstdv8]

I always find it sad that people are in such a rush to get thier fish into the DT so THEY can enjoy them that they abandon any reason for what's best for the fish.
It is not living in fear of ich that compells me to QT everything. I feel it's better for the fish to hang out in mild copper for a month then I can enjoy them for thier entire lifespan.
It's one thing in the enviornment that I can control so why not control it.
You cannot control when your heater is going to go out or a circulation pump or a million other things that can go wrong that would cause fish stress that mighh cause ich to rear its head in an un QTed environment.
If I were in the fishes "fins" I'd hope my owner would do the same for me.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

Wow, where do I start?
First off copper needs to be at a therapeutic level or there might as well be none.
Second if I were a fish and had just been trapped and dragged half way around the world in a bag then placed in a 10 gallon glass box and I had the option of going into another 10 gallon glass box with "mild" poison in it or going into a much larger glass box with other fish and lots of places to hide and rest I think I would take the latter.
And lastly QTing a fish for a month does not garauntee a lifetime of enjoyment. The fish can still get ich or any number of bacterial infections etc.
Obviously there are two very different viewpoints on this subject and we will have to agree to disagree. :beer:

 

[Jstdv8]

how do you suppose it's going to get ich if you eliminate the ich before it makes it to your DT?

 

[Jstdv8]

Curpimine is very mild compared to ther forms of copper used in the past. And it's obviously at therapeutic levels. Kind of a given.
People take a flu shot all the time, we take vaccines from birth to prevent us from getting measles mumps, ect ect ect. pretty much the same idea.
And ounce of prevention.....

 

[Anthonius]

That would be no copper in the DT not the QT. If he is doing copper in QT without inverts it is fine. No inverts in the QT if doing hypo either though, I don't think they can handle the low salinity.

from what i understand snails and crabs live intertidally in alot of places which may cause large fluxuations in the salinity due to fresh water drainage as well as evaporation during low tide. Snails and Crabs are pretty hardy against the salinity changes but do not like copper treatment, they also dont like drastic changes in temperature (but are much more durable than you may think). So basically keep them away from the copper and all should go well.. run the tank fallow for 8-10 weeks and all ich and cysts should be no more. afterwards continue with the QT tank and good QT practices on all new entries to the tank.

 

[gp2]

I suppose that is what I do not get about the QT process. Do you just let the fish sit in there for 6 weeks or do you put them through copper or hypo. If you actually treat does the risk outweigh the benefit? I am not sure what the overall long term effects are with copper (or hyposalinity for that matter.) If you do not treat, I suppose you just assume that you will have seen the external spots by that time. If you have a fish or fish in hypo you cannot just add new fish into the QT so it necessarily means you cannot get another fish in the meantime. The whole process is just cumbersome...

 

[bur01014]

how do you suppose it's going to get ich if you eliminate the ich before it makes it to your DT?

Newly purchased corals could bring them in....I guess you can QT them too....sounds like another tank..."Honey, I want to start a salt water tank, but to start that tank, I will need 5 of them" (don't forget fixtures, equip, etc. and most important TIME....who has time to do all of this?)

Newly purchased inverts can bring them in too....no, not on their bodies, a free swimming ich in a droplet of water on an invert can easily get into your tank. Unless you run a blow dryer on your invert for 10 minute, chances are, they aren't going in your tank dry. QT inverts is pointless because they are too delecate to treat....

 

[Jstdv8]

Newly purchased corals could bring them in....I guess you can QT them too....sounds like another tank..."Honey, I want to start a salt water tank, but to start that tank, I will need 5 of them" (don't forget fixtures, equip, etc. and most important TIME....who has time to do all of this?)

Newly purchased inverts can bring them in too....no, not on their bodies, a free swimming ich in a droplet of water on an invert can easily get into your tank. Unless you run a blow dryer on your invert for 10 minute, chances are, they aren't going in your tank dry. QT inverts is pointless because they are too delecate to treat....

Ahh, well, if you follow along on all these threads you will find that alot of do treat EVERYTHING. Now of course treating a fish is deiiferent than treating a coral, LR, invert ect.
Fish get the copper tank in my system and everything else gets the "sit for 6 weeks adn look pretty" tank
Both are very effective since one kills ich by way of copper and the other kills ich by elimintaing the fish from they system that they need to complete thier life cycle.
So again, where does ich come from if you treat it before it ever gets to your DT?

 

[bur01014]

Curpimine is very mild compared to ther forms of copper used in the past. And it's obviously at therapeutic levels. Kind of a given.
People take a flu shot all the time, we take vaccines from birth to prevent us from getting measles mumps, ect ect ect. pretty much the same idea.
And ounce of prevention.....

Sounds like something the manufacturer of cupramine says.....copper isn't mild, be it cupramine or old water pipes. It is not at therapeutric levels or else measuring daily if not more often wouldn't be necessary. You go slightly over the cupramine recommended dose, your in trouble. ESPECIALLY for fish that are more sensitive to copper...yes they exist, lionfish is one. Cupramine even says beware of lionfish and other sensitive fish when treating... On top of this, if you don't dose strong enough for a duration of of a couple weeks, then the ich may never be killed.

I am starting to wonder why people treat fish that have visible signs of ich? I wondered myself....I have done the QT and treat, wrong way to go....if your going to QT, QT all your fish first....still wouldn't do that anymore, but once your fish show signs of ich in the DT, why pull it out? Your tank already has ich, so its there, plus who has a QT big enough that can house 5 or 6 fish, effectively handling that bacteria with a sponge filter you had in your sump....

Fish don't commonly die of ich, I don't understand why I see posts that say this or those who worry about ich....I see some ich here and there, mostly when stress is induced (new fish purchased, new corals placed, hands in the tank all day)....a wide variety of good quality foods and stable reef takes care of the fish.

Sorry I came back....but I guess both sides of the disagreement need to be heard I have all the love for those that QT and use Cupramine, hypo, etc....I've done it, but won't do it again, don't have the time or the money to do it properly, nor has it improved the outcome of my tank inhabitants.