A few questions regarding ICH.....

[Jstdv8]

Time?
It litteraly takes 50 bucks worth of equipment and maybe a 1/2 hour to set it up. Water changes once a week just like the DT. water changes in a 10 gallon tank consit of dipping in a 1 gallon jug, removing 1 gallon of water and adding back in 1 gallon of new saltwater. So theres litterally less than 5 minutes a week and that's if you dilly dally.
If you don't have 5 minutes a week to dedicate to your fishes health you may be in the wrong hobby.

 

[bur01014]

Fish get the copper tank in my system and everything else gets the "sit for 6 weeks adn look pretty" tank
Both are very effective since one kills ich by way of copper and the other kills ich by elimintaing the fish from they system that they need to complete thier life cycle.
So again, where does ich come from if you treat it before it ever gets to your DT?

You win- When can I come over to pick up some stuff? Are you an LFS? How many tanks you got running? I'm just messing with ya...I barely have the time to deal with one tank vs. 3....nor would my wife enjoy a plethora of tanks throughout the house.....but if you want to Run 2 QT tanks and your main, go right ahead....my fish and livestock do just fine without it....

 

[bur01014]

Time?
It litteraly takes 50 bucks worth of equipment and maybe a 1/2 hour to set it up. Water changes once a week just like the DT. water changes in a 10 gallon tank consit of dipping in a 1 gallon jug, removing 1 gallon of water and adding back in 1 gallon of new saltwater. So theres litterally less than 5 minutes a week and that's if you dilly dally.
If you don't have 5 minutes a week to dedicate to your fishes health you may be in the wrong hobby.

Ohhh no you just didn't say that.....your QT is a 10 gallon? This discussion is over...your poor fish...

 

[bur01014]

To original Poster: Have you ever thought about running a UV and Ozone? This should effectively reduce any burden ich may potentially have, keeping it at bay. Will it cure a sick fish? No, but it is a great preventative tool. I would spend my funding on an UV rather than a proper QT (nothing under 55 gallon)

Just opened a can of worms- watching for the negative effects UV and ozone have on a tank....

 

[bur01014]

Time?
It litteraly takes 50 bucks worth of equipment and maybe a 1/2 hour to set it up. QUOTE]

How do you keep an anemone or SPS alive in QT with 50 bucks worth of equip....I need to know these amazing deals on lights that can keep these high-light critters thriving for six weeks, as well as tanks the appropriate size, filtration equip, heaters that won't explode etc.....sounds like your lights cost you 10 bucks then?

I applaud you for your optimism....

Happy Halloween

 

[Sk8r]

Sheesh, guys. You do NOT treat corals. You dip them in approved dips to kill parasites, and go over them with a magnifying glass.

NEVER treat a well fish. Treatments for disease are meant to kill parasites just somewhat ahead of killing the fish, so do your fish a favor and just observe them for signs of illness.

A qt tank is not unkind: you are giving the fish a nice hotel room with NO competition for food, no predators, no territorial goby threatening to rip his gills out, and no bright lights. He stays there 4 weeks, and if your fish comes in well, nothing about that tank should make him sick. If it does, you're not doing something right, and you need to figure out what.

Many things contribute to a fish dying in qt: 1) being caught with cyanide: nothing would have helped. The unscrupulous catcher gets paid: you get a dying fish. 2) too long in acclimation or other exposure to ammonia: things I've said above would prevent that. 3) internal injury you haven't spotted when you bought the fish---you get cannier 4) disease you didn't correctly diagnose. You treated with copper or hypo, but it was bacterial and needed antibiotic. Etc.
It's a learning curve.
I'd suggest, if you've enjoyed reading this widely-ranging post, that you go up to the sticky notes at the very top, read up on the topics herein discussed, and digest those notes, which have been gone over for accuracy.

 

[Jstdv8]

Time?
It litteraly takes 50 bucks worth of equipment and maybe a 1/2 hour to set it up. QUOTE]

How do you keep an anemone or SPS alive in QT with 50 bucks worth of equip....I need to know these amazing deals on lights that can keep these high-light critters thriving for six weeks, as well as tanks the appropriate size, filtration equip, heaters that won't explode etc.....sounds like your lights cost you 10 bucks then?

I applaud you for your optimism....

Happy Halloween

Well, ive never done an anemone, but i do have some montis, zoas and frogspawn in my qt with a handfull of hermits and cleaner shrimp. As for the lighting, you'd be amazed at what a 10 dollar swirly compact flourescent light from home depot can do on a 10 gallon tank. Yes, thats all i use. 30 watts. have the frag rack up by the surface of the water so the frags are only in about 3 " of water. the crabs and shrimp hang out below.
Ive done this with all of my corals including galaxia, stag horn, duncans, acro, ect.
This 10g tank is for the corals, LR and inverts. I do have a 10g copper tank for fish that I use for most purchases (so far a pair of black clowns, a little sixline, and a mandarin plenty of room for little fish. If i were going to do a tang (which I will in the future) I'll use a larger tank of course for that one treatment.

 

[charo]

This 10g tank is for the corals, LR and inverts. I do have a 10g copper tank for fish that I use for most purchases (so far a pair of black clowns, a little sixline, and a mandarin plenty of room for little fish. If i were going to do a tang (which I will in the future) I'll use a larger tank of course for that one treatment.

so having four tanks? seems like too much, but im a beginner so im learning,
a tank used with copper treating cant be used for anything else?

 

[rayn]

so having four tanks? seems like too much, but im a beginner so im learning,
a tank used with copper treating cant be used for anything else?

Four tanks is easy. If your new, wait for the addiction to start. I'm running three now, with two sumps. I have five sitting waiting for something to happen with them.

Like I said, it is OUR responsibility to take care of these creatures that we (maybe inadvertently) pulled from their homes.

As for copper tank being used for anything else, maybe. Cupramine is supposed to be able to be pulled out by carbon and or cuprisorb. I treated some fish with ich with cupramine. Never used cuprisorb. Now later letting that tank run with carbon back in the filter and treating a different fish with paraguard, I have pods coming back. From what I understand pods are inverts, killed by copper. So if copper is leaching out of the tank glass, silicone, and the filter, then why do I have pods? So there you have to use your own judgement cause I'm not going to make that call either way, just what I experienced.

Sk8r, so you don't advocate the treat everything aproach. QT the fish, watch, but if nothing developes in the 4 weeks transfer to DT? What about the ich that hides out in the gills? What about a unseen parasite? If either of these are there and don't flare up till in DT, what was the point?

 

[steelhead77]

You know what.....I think I'll sell all my fish and corals and just get a plastic sunken ship and a treasure chest that burps bubbles. That way I don't have to ever worry about the dreaded ICH!!!!

And I'll never have to worry about having a fish that looks like this:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/steelhead77/3526844642/" title="Prince_Ich2 by steelhead77, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3526844642_841f746b6a.jpg" width="500" height="343" alt="Prince_Ich2" /></a>

Oh...and BTW two years after this pic was taken, this fish is doing just fine thank you. He was not removed and treated. And no other fish got the dreaded ich from him either.

Please people! How 'bout a little sanity as far as this subject goes, huh? Ich does NOT mean a fish is doomed. Anyone who tells you otherwise has some serious fish husbandry problems - and ich is the least of them.

Those that say I got lucky.....I seriously doubt that I am the only one who has had success with the "leave the poor thing alone" method of treating.

 

[charo]

wow that looks like its at its worst huh? or at that point does it get worst, and then better if left alone?

 

[Palting]

I must have seen that pic a few dozen times, and it still impresses me!!

I agree having Ich is not an automatic death sentence for the fish or the tank. Steelheads experience proves that. Mine, too, as I still have 3 of my tangs that got Ich and survived. They got it twice!!

However, Steelhead, you do have to agree that Ich can wipe out all the fish in a tank. It has happened to someone here in this forum, and I am sure it has happened to others. And I don't think it's fair to say the only way that can happen is bad husbandry, or bad tank practice, or bad anything. It can come in like a bolt of lightning. My tank, as far as I know, had pristine parameters and the tangs look healthy prior to the first attack, and again prior to the second attack. The only new fish I added before the Ich outbreak was the mandarin, a fish I would not think would bring in Ich, so probably didn't.

Anyhoo, guys, I believe this is a healthy discussion about Ich management, and all the sides are being heard. It's up to the readers to decide what is right for them. I believe what was right for me was to treat all my fish in my original DT and now QT AND treat all new fish in QT. Steelhead and UncleSalty believe otherwise and it's right for them. I will NOT say they are wrong, just that it is wrong for me.

Believe what you want, and follow what you believe. Let the others do thei own thing. Check out my sig .

 

[steelhead77]

So, I will NEVER tell anyone not to QT and observe their NEW fish before they go into the DT but I will not advocate treating if there are no symptoms. However, I do think the argument can be made that this only causes more stress to the fish and will bring about ich when it may not if put diirectly into the DT. My argument has always been that I am against telling anyone - especially newbies - that they MUST tear apart their tank and chase a sick fish around with a net in order to remove it and treat it in a 10 gallon (or any size) tank for 6 to 8 weeks at the first sign of a few spots, otherwise all their fish are doomed.

I do think that good husbandry plays a very important part in whether a fish survives a bout with this disease. Keep the water parameters as pristine as possible and as long as the fish are still eating and swimming normal the fish can, and most likely will, sucessfully fight this off. I also believe that my experience shows that if the ich parasite does not find a suitable host (ie: you have otherwise healthy fish) it will die off after a certain period of time and your tank will become ich free, even if you do not leave the tank fallow. I believe this is what happened in my tank. I do not think my tank is anything special, nor am I "lucky". Again, good husbandry and good water conditions will make all the difference whether a fish, or fishes, survive an outbreak.

Obviously there are differing opinions on this subject and the reefer must do what he/she thinks is best for THEIR tank and fish. I only offer my experience as an example that all is not doomed if you get a few spots on your fish and would tell you that there is no need to panic and immediately begin a course of maybe unnecessary and potentially harmful treatment.

 

[steelhead77]

wow that looks like its at its worst huh? or at that point does it get worst, and then better if left alone?

That was at it's worst. It pretty much parked itself in front of a powerhead for a few days, when it wasn't eating like a pig, and then began to get better. The only thing I did for "treatment" was to add UV to the sump. No other fish came down with, or have come down with, ich after two years and two tank upgrades since this pic was taken.

 

[bertoni]

Marine ich can survive in reef tanks for years using resident fish as hosts. As long as the tank conditions remain good and no new fish are added, the problems might be minimal an unnoticeable. Unfortunately, a new addition or a temporary water quality problem (maybe a power outage) could cause a big problem.

It's possible, too, that the ich will die out, but I wouldn't risk it. I would get the fish out and treat them, if at all possible. Tearing down a small tank, if needed, is painful, but doable. I've done it a number of times when moving.

 

[steelhead77]

Marine ich can survive in reef tanks for years using resident fish as hosts. As long as the tank conditions remain good and no new fish are added, the problems might be minimal an unnoticeable. Unfortunately, a new addition or a temporary water quality problem (maybe a power outage) could cause a big problem.

It's possible, too, that the ich will die out, but I wouldn't risk it. I would get the fish out and treat them, if at all possible. Tearing down a small tank, if needed, is painful, but doable. I've done it a number of times when moving.

You obviously have much more experience than I do and I would generally agree with this statement, however since this pic was taken I've added approximately 10 more fish and went through two tank upgrades. Needless to say my fish have been under some stress and have seen some "less than pristine quality" water conditions, yet no other outbreak has occured. Again, I don't think that I am just "lucky". I am sure that many other reefers can share the same experience as me.

It's not always practical to tear apart a tank for a few white spots when a "wait and see" approach may be all that's needed. If things go south, then you can remove and treat as needed.

 

[saltwater freak]

ok i am probably going to get yelled at lol

I have had ick 2 times

both times i did nothing but keep water quality up and feed well

first time i got it in my DT was not a bad outbreak a few spots on each fish i fed new life spectrum with ,selcon,garlic extract, it went away and have never seen sings of it for over 1.75 years in my 75 gallon

2nd time i got it i bought a flame angel first it he got ick,than pop eye ,than fin rot

i had him in a hospital tank for 11 weeks with live rock

he got rid of all the ick in about 1 week and the pop eye and fin rot he got rid of in about 2 weeks


the ick,pop eye,and fin rot, went away and i have not seen any sings of any disease in any other fish in over 2 months after the 11 week quarantine period

so after i seen so sings of ick or any other parasites 8 weeks than added into my new DT

so the moral of my story is I personally think that any chemical you use on fish/reef tanks will hurt more than the parasites
copper may help with ick but in the long term it may cause damage to the fish's liver and other internal organs
i have had ick 2 times in 2 different tanks and i have never lost a fish,or had any reinfections, and i have never used chemicals

good quality and variety of foods and good water will cure anything in my opinion

 

[Sk8r]

Unfortunately while oceanlike water quality may help fish stand off various conditions, 'great water' in the newbie forum means 'my params read ok,' 'my fish store said my water was good' and 'I had a topoff accident yesterday but I added salt and it's fine now.' Most newbies haven't gotten a refractometer yet, don't have all 3 necessary tests (alkalinity, calcium, magnesium), don't log, are struggling to figure out testing and water changes, may not have an autotopoff yet, and in short, new reefers have more accidents. It's part of the learning curve---and part of the acquisition process, buying this and buying that on a budget that's already taken a big hit with the tank and lighting and pump. In all love, we've all been there, which is where all reefers start unless they buy a turn-key $10,000.00 system and hire a guy to come in and do it for them.

And my advice to new reefers is---quarantine. You have too much else going on with your tank, too many potential water-glitches that will suddenly make your fish feel they're in life-threatening conditions. These things happen. If you quarantine, you are giving your fish a time to feed without competition, a chance to get to know you and the bumps and thumps in your residence without the added thrill of meeting a fish that looks like Freddy Kruger popping out of a hole with teeth evident---

Quarantine, properly managed, is a safe place, where a fish can recuperate from everything that's just happened to him---being netted, bagged, tanked, shipped, starved, thrown into another tank, netted, bagged, shipped in a box, tanked again, rebagged, and sent off in a car...still without a meal---and all this in the space of two nightmarish weeks.

Give the fish a break, give him some quiet, the chance to eat and calm down in relatively dim light, and not meet the toughest fish in your tank when he's already stressed to the max. You do NOT treat a well fish. You just observe him closely, get to know him, teach him that your presence means food and is not scary, and when he does go into your tank several weeks later, he'll go in healthy, into a healthy tank.

 

[bertoni]

You obviously have much more experience than I do and I would generally agree with this statement, however since this pic was taken I've added approximately 10 more fish and went through two tank upgrades. Needless to say my fish have been under some stress and have seen some "less than pristine quality" water conditions, yet no other outbreak has occured. Again, I don't think that I am just "lucky". I am sure that many other reefers can share the same experience as me.

We get this kind of logic posted here all the time. "Nothing bad happened to me, so I don't think it'll happen to anyone." You were lucky. Lots of people are lucky for a while, and then have problems. One member here didn't have any ich for about 20 years, decided he had an ich-proof tank, and then got whacked, losing a lot of his fish.

I completely believe all the stories about how people have never treated for ich, etc. I also believe all the stories about how people lose that gamble.

 

[ctrl+f]

You obviously have much more experience than I do and I would generally agree with this statement, however since this pic was taken I've added approximately 10 more fish and went through two tank upgrades. Needless to say my fish have been under some stress and have seen some "less than pristine quality" water conditions, yet no other outbreak has occured. Again, I don't think that I am just "lucky". I am sure that many other reefers can share the same experience as me.

It's not always practical to tear apart a tank for a few white spots when a "wait and see" approach may be all that's needed. If things go south, then you can remove and treat as needed.

I took this advice when you posted it in my thread about a possible ich infection. The spots went away, and I thought hey, that guy was right.

A couple of weeks later, ich returned with a vengeance, and I lost two fish within the first two days of visible re-infection.

I don't want this to come across as blaming. I chose to do what I did. But it was a bad gamble for me.