A few questions regarding ICH.....

[bertoni]

Yep, there's lots of stories like this. Even horrid advice works now and then, though.

 

[lordofthereef]

Curpimine is very mild compared to ther forms of copper used in the past. And it's obviously at therapeutic levels. Kind of a given.
People take a flu shot all the time, we take vaccines from birth to prevent us from getting measles mumps, ect ect ect. pretty much the same idea.
And ounce of prevention.....

My friend, I say this with respect, but you either have no grasp of why/how a vaccination works or you have no grasp of why/how treating a tank with copper works. They are VERY different things.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

how do you suppose it's going to get ich if you eliminate the ich before it makes it to your DT?

Do you quarantine your live rock and corals in copper?
If the answer is no there is a very good chance your tank has ich in it.
Ich is a natural parasitic infection designed to "thin the herd" and insure survival of the fittest.
Pretty much any body of saltwater with contents collected in the wild has ich in it. You may think you are eliminating it by QT and for the fish being treated that might be true but as soon as you put that fish in you DT the chance of ich returning is there.
Water quality and good nutrition is the best defense against ich IMHO.

 

[rayn]

If your tank stays fallow for the eight weeks, or you start out with base rock that is dry and DO QT your corals and dip them, then yeah a tank can be ich free. Takes some time and work but it can be done if wanted.

 

[Sk8r]

This thread unfortunately has quite a few posts with incorrect information. If you are new to the hobby, please doublecheck information found herein: it is, with the sole exception of invertebrates and dragonets, NEVER a good idea to put a creature into your tank without, in the case of fish, quarantine; or in the case of corals, dipping in an approved dip for that type. You risk two things: killing every fish or coral in your tank---AND---infesting your tank with a parasite (ich, redbug, cirolanids, flatworms, etc) that will necessitate leaving your tank bare for 8 weeks in the case of ich, or even more troublesome treatments in the case of the other things. It will also necessitate getting a quarantine large enough to accommodate all vulnerable specimens---which can add up to a Really Big Hospital Tank---or losing all your fish. Those are the risks. Is qt an inconvenience to you? Yes. Is it an inconvenience to your fish? Death is even more inconvenient, and it will not happen in quarantine if a) you maintain good chemistry b) you diagnose correctly and ask questions c) you treat accurately by the precise instructions of the Fish Disease forums and if d) you did not buy a fish that was already too injured or sick to survive. Experience helps that. But take care of that tank you so painstakingly cycled and loved and nursed along: protect it by quarantining and not letting parasites in.

 

[Jstdv8]

Do you quarantine your live rock and corals in copper?
If the answer is no there is a very good chance your tank has ich in it.
Ich is a natural parasitic infection designed to "thin the herd" and insure survival of the fittest.
Pretty much any body of saltwater with contents collected in the wild has ich in it. You may think you are eliminating it by QT and for the fish being treated that might be true but as soon as you put that fish in you DT the chance of ich returning is there.
Water quality and good nutrition is the best defense against ich IMHO.

Salty,
My best advise is to perhaps do some research on the marine ich life cycle and then get back to us if you have any questions from there.

 

[Jstdv8]

My friend, I say this with respect, but you either have no grasp of why/how a vaccination works or you have no grasp of why/how treating a tank with copper works. They are VERY different things.

Agreed, It was the best I could come up with for a prevention that we use in our tanks.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

Salty,
My best advise is to perhaps do some research on the marine ich life cycle and then get back to us if you have any questions from there.

Good one, but keep your day job.
No questions, I have probably read more articles about cryptocaryon irritans than you have taken bites of solid food.

 

[Jstdv8]

Well, according to your statement, you are implying that it is worthless to QT LR and corals without the use of copper. I really don't know where to start......
Obviously the corals would die and the LR would be useless in a reef tank for the future for the same reason. I'm not sure what exactly you are getting at here.
Secondly, if you have a QT tank that does not use copper that is used for corals, LR and inverts then all you have to do is simply put whatever you are Qting in the tank. and let it run just like normal. With no fish present to complete the life cycle the ich will die off in approx 30 days due to lack of a host and your LR will in fact be ich free without the use of copper.
So, if you've allready read all these articles i'm sure you must have picked up that key fact.
So what was it that you were getting at?
My system is very simple.
To prevent ich from ever reaching my DT I treat all new fish in cuprimine (Copper) in one tank and I treat everything else in a 10g non copper tank by simply having them in a fishless enviornment. Basically taking all the "what if's" out of the equation.

Now I'm certainly not going to argue that prestine water conditions help keep fish healthy and can fight off ich from hosting a fish (externally), but what always seems to get people is the stuff they can't control. Like a top off malfunction, a power head malfunction, a heater malfunction (this one seems to be the biggie) or how a new fish might react to the new DT or how the current fish might act to the new fish coming in.
All of these things and more contribute to a fish getting stressed, none of which a reefer really has much control over. So you can have the best water quality on the planet and that's great, but when something out of your control pops up I'm going to be glad my livestock ect. was properly "de-ich-ed" before the disaster strikes.

Can fish live through these things with a major ich outbreak? Sure they can, but they don't always pull through. And as has been mentioned several times allready, this is not the time you want to be chasing your prized fish around the tank stressing him out further.

 

[Sk8r]

do not lose sight of the fact you are debating in hyperbole and being read by people who are just setting up their first tank and do not yet know how to distinguish dramatic exaggeration from fact on the topic of copper, which can kill a tank if dosed improperly. Strongly suggest that you carry the nuances of the copper debate to the Advanced forum.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

My point is that if you do not quarantine EVERYTHING that goes into your tank (including some live foods) you may as well not quarantine anything.
As I have said (repeatedly) you can quarantine a fish as long as you wish and if you put that fish in a tank with bad parameters and/or poor husbandry or there are tank mate bulllies the fact that you quarantined is no garauntee that the fish will not get ich.
As others have mentioned if you start with dry rock and nothing "live" like rock or sand you can be assured there is no ich in the tank.
Can I see a show of hands of those that started a reef tank and never used anything collected from the ocean (other than the fish) in that set up?
And if you in fact did take this route how boring was it and how long was it before you saw a spec of life.

And like I also said before: Since I have stopped freaking out over every white spot I see and concentrated on keeping my parameters in line and feeding a varied diet I have not lost a single fish to ich or experienced the angst that goes along with it.
I get it, you like to quarantine. I don't. Nuff said.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

do not lose sight of the fact you are debating in hyperbole and being read by people who are just setting up their first tank and do not yet know how to distinguish dramatic exaggeration from fact on the topic of copper, which can kill a tank if dosed improperly. Strongly suggest that you carry the nuances of the copper debate to the Advanced forum.

I haven't used copper in over 15 years, nor will I ever again.

 

[Stuart60611]

For me, I think the quality of the fishs' life and even the fishs' health is compromised even during a low level ich infestation which goes untreated. I have observed ich in many systems and on many fish. Even when the infestation is kept small, I have never not seen fish show some signs of the infestation, whether it be flashing, darting, spoting, diminished appetite or swimming, or other commonly seen behavorial or visual signs. IME, most fish infected with ich are almost always far less active than they would be otherwise. I just do not enjoy keeping my fish living in such a manner and engaging in such abnormal behavior or looking at them with white spots on their bodies. I would have to imagine that the stress the parasite causes also reduces the overall health of the fish. It must be very uncomfortable for a fish to have thousands of parasites crawling about the fishs' body feeding off of the fish.

As far as copper, all coppers are not equal in terms of their effectiveness or ease of application. Cupramine is very easy to use, very effective, and safe to use on virtually all fish. I have used it many times with great success on many different fish, including copper sensitive fish like puffers, tangs, and angels. In fact, I think it is a far better choice to treat ich than hypo because it is much easier to administer successfully. Hypo is very difficult to conduct correctly and often fails because of the low margin for error required for its correct application. It also takes much longer to complete hypo treatment than cupramine.

 

[Jstdv8]

do not lose sight of the fact you are debating in hyperbole and being read by people who are just setting up their first tank and do not yet know how to distinguish dramatic exaggeration from fact on the topic of copper, which can kill a tank if dosed improperly. Strongly suggest that you carry the nuances of the copper debate to the Advanced forum.

Point taken

 

[Jstdv8]

for me, i think the quality of the fishs' life and even the fishs' health is compromised even during a low level ich infestation which goes untreated. I have observed ich in many systems and on many fish. Even when the infestation is kept small, i have never not seen fish show some signs of the infestation, whether it be flashing, darting, spoting, diminished appetite, or other commonly seen behavorial or visual signs. I just do not enjoy keeping my fish living in such a manner and engaging in such abnormal behavior or looking at them with white spots on their bodies i would have to imagine that the stress the parasite causes also reduces the overall health of the fish. It must be very uncomfortable for a fish to have thousands of parasites crawling about the fishs' body feeding off of the fish.

As far as copper, all coppers are not equal in terms of their effectiveness or ease of application. Cupramine is very easy to use, very effective, and safe to use on virtually all fish. I have used it many times with great success on many different fish, including copper sensitive fish like puffers, tangs, and angels. In fact, i think it is a far better choice to treat ich than hypo because it is much easier to administer successfully. Hypo is very difficult to conduct correctly and often fails because of the low margin for error required in its application.

+1

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

That poor dead horse.

My fish do not have ich nor do they exhibit any abnormal behavior.
QT your little hearts out and the best of luck to you.

 

[Stuart60611]

That poor dead horse.

My fish do not have ich nor do they exhibit any abnormal behavior.
QT your little hearts out and the best of luck to you.

I highly doubt that is true. You do not know how your fish would behaive if they were not infected. I have repeatedly observed countless times a substantial increase in swimming behavior and appetite in fish once they were treated and no longer infected with the parasite. Just because you do not see spoting does not mean that your fish are not infected with ich.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

I highly doubt that is true. You do not know how your fish would behaive if they were not infected. I have repeatedly observed countless times a substantial increase in swimming behavior and appetite in fish once they were treated and no longer infected with the parasite. Just because you do not see spoting does not mean that your fish are not infected with ich.

You can doubt whatever you like. You would be completely wrong, but doubt away.
I KNOW that my fish do not have ich.
Come over to my house and stick your hand in my tank and let my female Sabae clown show off her swimming prowess.

Is this how someone that disagrees with the "conventional wisdom" gets treated?

 

[Stuart60611]

You can doubt whatever you like. You would be completely wrong, but doubt away.
I KNOW that my fish do not have ich.
Come over to my house and stick your hand in my tank and let my female Sabae clown show off her swimming prowess.

Is this how someone that disagrees with the "conventional wisdom" gets treated?

No, it is how someone who disagrees with established science and bases such disagreement on utter unsupported conjecture gets treated, particularlly when such attitudes induce others who know no better to not properly care for the animals under their care.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

No, it is how someone who disagrees with established science and bases such disagreement on utter unsupported conjecture gets treated, particularlly when such attitudes induce others who know no better to not properly care for the animals under their care.

Established science? C'mon like global warming?
I would hardly call 20 years of sucessful reefkeeping unsupported conjecture.
If you feel like forcing your "animals" to swim in poison in the name of being humane you go right ahead. I choose not to.


OK, you get miffed if someone disagrees with you. I will just ignore your posts.