A Splash of Color

[biggles]

hey hey Andrew!

welcome back! happy to see you are getting your tank back on track!!

:beer:

Flo

Thanks Flo

I was under the impression. That copper sulfate (I assume is in the trace hard) is one of those elements that is depleted from the water with light. Could be wrong I forget where I read this... I wasn't aware that it could build up over time. Did you see physically see something in your tank that was negative?

I didn't see anything i would describe as negative from the copper and zinc dosing at all mate. I stopped because i don't believe it does anything except reduce zoa numbers and cause less saturated or 'pastel' colors and that's a matter of personal taste just as BB or sand is imo.
I had quite a few friends tell me my acros were paling or pastelling up a bit but i never noticed, however seeing the acros every day you wouldn't see the gradual change most likely.

If i thought heavy metal dosing with trace hard or micro e was terrible i would say so because i wouldn't want new reefers to do something stupid. I think when used in moderation it is a useful lightening agent or color tweaking tool but since i don't think i need it personally i don't use it.

I can buy the AF range from my LFS now btw................

 

[martinphillip03]

Thanks for the update. Hope you have a happy forth of July. (Aussies like to celebrate anything)

Marty

 

[biggles]

Thanks Marty

Fish Status Quo:

Removed yellow tang that was nipping acros and bossing all the other fish

Blue tang took over and took a set on Moby who ended up jumping out overnight - now hate the blue tang's guts

Blue tang now annoys the $600- white tail tang which stands up to it and the two are tail slashing at each other

Blue tang blows up with ich and then everything is covered in ich........

My 2" copperband that i had for three weeks and was eating and happy dies

My years old grumpy banggai dies

Removed the blue tang so now have a sick white tail tang, sick royal gramma and lots of little sick anthias, cardinals.

I spent a month trying to trap the green wrasse that was wreaking devastation on the low acro scape with his crazy sand digging all day long. Acro slime strings with sand stuck to them was constantly blowing around, nothing growing due to constant annoyance. Alk draw dropped below 100ml a day so i cracked it and removed all the sand from the display to force the bastard into a sand container. Also thought new sand wouldn't hurt re the de coppering treatment.

Words can not express the joy that ran through my every being when i clicked the lid on that stinking fish sand bed container ! There's a LFS that is a 15 minute bus ride from home that is really crappy as hell so i thought the fish deserved such a fate.
I waited patiently with my container of sand with the wrasse buried in it, it was cold and raining and i began to regret behaving so petulantly towards a fish that was simply following its instincts to dig in the sand so as the bus pulled away the wrasse and i remained seated at the stop.
I stood chuckling to myself for being so silly, threw the fish under the wheels of the first truck that came by and walked home having realized that you can't fight instinct.........

 

[nemodan]

Wow.....

 

[reefmutt]

The wrasse under a truck.. Really? Hm..
Ouch..

You could have given it to Dom and said it was a perfect citizen.

Good to hear your absence is only fish related and not real life related.

I'm about a month in to a half dose Koralcolor and micro E and I can't say I've really seen any difference- except maybe in growth but that may simply be due to system stability.
I wonder if an algea fuge would have mitigated the zinc and copper levels at all..

Hope to see come crazy shots of your tank, soon, Andrew!

 

[Pife]

Happy your back! Good riddance to the wrasse and blue tang. Hope the white tail makes it. Looking forward to a photo dump soon!

 

[sahin]

Hey Andrew mate. Good to see you're back. I'm looking at getting a larger tank, could you let me know what return pump you are using on your system? On the old 65G you were using an Eheim 1262. What is your ideal flow through the sump? Thanks mate.

PS can we see more acro pics?

 

[gavinsepanik]

glad to see your back. So sorry to hear about the fish tragedies


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

[Piper27]

Thanks Flo



I didn't see anything i would describe as negative from the copper and zinc dosing at all mate. I stopped because i don't believe it does anything except reduce zoa numbers and cause less saturated or 'pastel' colors and that's a matter of personal taste just as BB or sand is imo.
I had quite a few friends tell me my acros were paling or pastelling up a bit but i never noticed, however seeing the acros every day you wouldn't see the gradual change most likely.

If i thought heavy metal dosing with trace hard or micro e was terrible i would say so because i wouldn't want new reefers to do something stupid. I think when used in moderation it is a useful lightening agent or color tweaking tool but since i don't think i need it personally i don't use it.

I can buy the AF range from my LFS now btw................

Gotcha! Just me curious Good news aquaforrest is out there. I have had good luck with it so far. I am like you I don't care for the pastel colors either. But I have started using zeolites and using some additives with copper sulphate in them, I think with the amount of food I feed and amount of fish I have I can avoid the completly pastel colors and still keep some boldness to the corals.
Looking forward to updates as always, sorry you had some trouble with the fish. I always hate to disrupt a good fish population by adding or subtracting one. Something always happens ...

 

[M007]

Oh my god Andrew, that wrasse story had me in stitches for 5 minutes. I feel you on that one as I have a clown wrasse that loves to hit my sand like a torpedo. I have often dreamed of how I would exact my revenge but never considered the hard end of a bus tire. Priceless!!! Now on to that white tailed tang, 600 bucks?!?!?!? Ouch, please post an ich free pic.

 

[slavetonet]

Holy cow - what a story you have told Andrew.
Hope for speedy recovery of your tank.
Chin up mate - what don't kill you, only makes you stronger.

PS - I have made my own trace elements - pretty silly if you ask me. LOL

 

[biggles]

Before i reply to you guys i want to make it clear that even though my acros have not grown a whole lot they are not exactly in bad shape. The fish debacle is entirely my fault for not Q'ing fish etc so don't go feeling sorry for me please.

I thought a couple of very gratuitous T5 only porn shots might be in order just so you know all is well with my babies.

The display has been a true peninsula with just two pumps on the overflow for almost a month now.

 

[FloformAustria]

looking good Andrew!

no mather what went south your tank still looks stunning! :thumbsup:

:strooper: :strooper:

 

[biggles]

Hi Andrew,
Great result with no water changes!
Did you test copper, potassium, boron, iodine, strontium yourself too?
What do you think about high level of copper, what may be a source of it?
Also Aluminium level is high, is the Siporax or matrix can be a source of Al?

I didn't test anything myself mate. I'm pretty sure all the bad stuff was coming from the trace hard.

None of those results are a surprise based on your dosing Andrew. You are playing with certain elements to enhance the colours of your acros. No different than the Zeo and AF people, all good. It would be interesting to see the long term effects, say 5 years out.

Hey Mike, i stopped the trace hard due to concerns over long term effects i have also mate

I'm officially on the Biggles bandwagon. Added 4L of Matrix in my zeo reactor and started dosing Koralcolor and Replenish today. My system is 40g, my dose is .4ml Kc and .6ml Replenish daily. Any thoughts on the dosage amount?

Hi Brandon, if you are doing regular water changes i would drop the replenish and dose 0.3ml in the morning and 0.2ml after all lights are off each evening with just the koralcolor. If you use lugols as i do use it at 1 drop per 150-160gal a day.
The matrix will take about 10-12 weeks to kick in but it happens over a week or so and you will definitely notice the sudden drop in nutrients. You're running the same amount of matrix per gal as i am btw

Interesting with your potassium so high you are not experiencing some tip burn.

Hey Greg, that one surprised me too mate. It only dropped below 470 last week as up until then it took one drop of the Salifert reagent to cause a reaction. Never saw anything bad as a result so sky high potassium doesn't damage tips in my system thank goodness.

Agreed..
I find it interesting that your copper is so high, yet you have no pale corals.. Pure, dark saturation of color..
Very interesting results..

I dosed just before the sample because i wanted to see what things were in high concentration in what i was dosing. I did the triton for this reason more than just what my water levels were at. To me it showed the trace hard element ratio mix was nothing like NSW which i actually thought it was supposed to be lol.
When you see the first batch of top downs i post i think you will change your mind about thinking i had saturated colors when using the copper. I would describe the improvement in pigments as dramatic since stopping the trace hard and doing water changes with IO salt.

Didn't you do a little overdose of kc and lugols before taking a sample. That high copper reading could be from that right?

Spot on mate.

Trace hard has the copper. It's not in the Koralcolor.
Yes, he over dosed that was well, but would one dose do that?
Who knows.

It was the dose or the water had heaps of copper all the time Matt, either way i didn't like it.

 

[biggles]

Andrew, according to the analysis you have no Manganese in your tank"¦is it possible?

I really don't know mate but i don't think i entirely trust the triton testing.

Good point. There is mn in both trace hard and Koralcolor..
Must be a mistake..

I think the word mistake is appropriate Matt.

Have you read this article about Triton ?

Just curious :uhoh3:

I actually read that AFTER i submitted the test. I was not particularly optimistic of receiving a scientifically accurate water analysis but thanks for pointing out the fact i wasted $50- on triton........:fun4:

Mn 0 while you are dosing it....
K + Mg high readings while you are not dosing....

I am really interesting to read your comments on triton results Andrew.

I think spending the $50- on an acro to make you guys spew with jealous rage would have been a better than wasting it on the triton mate.

Copper being high does not necessarily mean corals will pale, the copper in the water could be bio-unavailable so corals would not be affected.

The High K is not an issue, I have regularly run my system at 600 K and no tip burn, Biggles lack of tip burn is probably due to the high Zn levels.

It looks like from Biggles lack of Manganese either the Triton test is off or more likely that zooxanthellae use it up quicker than we realise or it is used up by a lot more creatures in our tanks than we think.

Great results and to my mind very interesting results that set my mind ticking about all the elements and the way our tanks react to them and how much they rely on them.

Thanks Biggles

I agree about the copper lightening thing mate, whilst my pigments have increased since stopping the trace hard copper dosing i never saw anything approaching a pale pastel zeo look to the display personally.

Do you have any personal experience or any kind of thoughts,of why such a thing would happen?
It would be awesome if you could solve the mystery,thanks in advance:thumbsup:

Are you asking me Mike ? I think the only explanation is that Sahin got a job at triton and started shaking the sh#t out of everyone's water samples with his stupid magnetic stirrer...........

 

[biggles]

Thanks for posting the results Andrew. I've always been told that Manganese precipitates out pretty quickly which might be why you are not showing any buildup. I am happy to see that some of your levels are pretty high but that you are not having any issues in the tank. I have recently started dosing iodine at higher levels daily so I was relived to see that you are not having issues with the high levels that the ICP test found.

One section was missing, the Li-Group. Could you post that or just let me know what your Mo tested at?

Hey Joe, as i said earlier i never saw anything negative despite the high readings triton gave me from testing my water. Sorry about missing that group, here you go mate

Joe,

You may have missed this, but he spiked his tank with Lugols, Koral color and Trace hard, before he sent it off to Triton.

Take what you will from that, but some of the elements high readings may be expected.

Also, as Reefvet linked in his post........I'd take note of some of Triton's inaccuracies, especially when it comes to zinc and manganese.

Couldn't have put it better myself Ed, when you consider all these things i think i should have just bought another acro instead.

Hi Biggles ,

Do you feed your corals with any product or not ?

Nothing mate. I just feed the fish during the day and that's it. I feed a lot.

Going threw some serious withdrawals of biggles porn.

Hope everything is ok bud

Thanks mate, i'll have a poke around and see if anything is worth a top down for you..........:thumbsup:

hi biggles ,

Have you tried Iodion from Brightwell ?
What is the difference with Lugol ?

Hi Vince, there is no iodine in Iodion. Lugol's contains both Potassium Iodide and Iodine which is why i use it

Bump. Hope you are well Andrew. How is the tank coming along? Would love to see some new pics mate.

Hi Sahin, all is well just haven't enjoyed the hobby much the last month but everything will go well now i have everything sorted sort of......

I hope life is well and you're too busy with great stuff to keep this journal up to date!

Thanks mate, will try not to disappear for so long again

 

[biggles]

Wow.....

I didn't really throw the wrasse under a truck Daniel lol.

The wrasse under a truck.. Really? Hm..
Ouch..

You could have given it to Dom and said it was a perfect citizen.

Good to hear your absence is only fish related and not real life related.

I'm about a month in to a half dose Koralcolor and micro E and I can't say I've really seen any difference- except maybe in growth but that may simply be due to system stability.
I wonder if an algea fuge would have mitigated the zinc and copper levels at all..

Hope to see come crazy shots of your tank, soon, Andrew!

Hey Matt, i have about 160gal of water in the system and dose 1.2ml of KC in the morning and 0.6ml after the lights are out. Try that dosage rate and the two split doses for a couple of weeks with no other changes for me

Happy your back! Good riddance to the wrasse and blue tang. Hope the white tail makes it. Looking forward to a photo dump soon!

Thanks mate, i'm going to see Dave at Deer Park tomorrow for supplies and fish food as i want to give my fish every chance to get through the ich. You can actually see the ich on the royal gramma in those pics. I am dosing hydrogen peroxide twice a day for ten days to drive the bastards from under the fishe's skin.

Hey Andrew mate. Good to see you're back. I'm looking at getting a larger tank, could you let me know what return pump you are using on your system? On the old 65G you were using an Eheim 1262. What is your ideal flow through the sump? Thanks mate.

PS can we see more acro pics?

Hey mate, i had the 1260 not the 1262 on the 65gal. I measured my return flow during a water change a couple of weeks back and it is just under 2000L per hour or triple my water volume. I always use a digital thermometer to test both the sump and the furthest point from the return in the display in winter (now) to ensure there is no temp slack from too little flow through the sump and heaters. I have zero difference in water temp anywhere.

glad to see your back. So sorry to hear about the fish tragedies

Thanks mate, as i said the ich is my fault. I forgot to mention btw that the blue tang started picking acro tips a week before i trapped the bastard.......:hammer:

Gotcha! Just me curious Good news aquaforrest is out there. I have had good luck with it so far. I am like you I don't care for the pastel colors either. But I have started using zeolites and using some additives with copper sulphate in them, I think with the amount of food I feed and amount of fish I have I can avoid the completly pastel colors and still keep some boldness to the corals.
Looking forward to updates as always, sorry you had some trouble with the fish. I always hate to disrupt a good fish population by adding or subtracting one. Something always happens ...

I think you're right about the nutrient levels being a major influence on the visible effects of copper.
From the moment i removed the yellow tang it all went into a spiral of fish craziness and death......... i'm pretty much a marine serial killer when it comes to fish of late.........:facepalm:

Oh my god Andrew, that wrasse story had me in stitches for 5 minutes. I feel you on that one as I have a clown wrasse that loves to hit my sand like a torpedo. I have often dreamed of how I would exact my revenge but never considered the hard end of a bus tire. Priceless!!! Now on to that white tailed tang, 600 bucks?!?!?!? Ouch, please post an ich free pic.

BJ is the only fish larger than an anthias now and i intend only adding schooling small fish like the anthias and cardinals etc once the tank is clear again. I want about 35-40 small fish with BJ because i like the way they look hovering over and under the acros. I sent Dave a text last week - ' don't ever let me buy another $%#$%$ wrasse again please Dave'

I got a smiley back so i am wrasse banned at Deer Park to save my sanity in future Mike

Holy cow - what a story you have told Andrew.
Hope for speedy recovery of your tank.
Chin up mate - what don't kill you, only makes you stronger.

PS - I have made my own trace elements - pretty silly if you ask me. LOL

How did you make your own trace elements mate ? Sounds a bit half arsed science to me so it has my name written all over it :thumbsup:

looking good Andrew!

no mather what went south your tank still looks stunning! :thumbsup:

Thanks Flo, i'm picking up three 20kg bags of the same 3mm coral sand i took out from Deer Park tomorrow........ and just two AF products........:reading:

 

[reefmutt]

Well, Andrew, the tank is still looking pretty spectacular!

Going back to around Christmas, or thereabouts when you started Trace Hard and Koralcolor, you originally had a pretty rapid and positive shift on coloration and saturation. And it wasn't until that last two months or so that you say things stopped looking as good..
I know that I'd have trouble answering the following question because I am not a very good note taker, but can you list your original dosages - when you started and then show how you changed your dosages over the following months?
I remember you did play with dosages after the first couple months of success.. I think I even remember you increasing your dose of trace hard for a very short period..
Anyways, a proper spreadsheet with daily dosages and accompanying notes on their effects for the the past 6-8 months would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[FloformAustria]

and just two AF products........:reading:

that´s what we all thought ^^

 

[biggles]

Hi Matt, i will have to check back but tbh i think the lack of water changes leading to a depletion in some elements that are more important than we actually know led to the result. Everything looked better and brighter after a week of water changes and now the scumbag wrasse is gone i hope to see some growth picking up and more pigment combos showing themselves.

that´s what we all thought ^^

I'm just getting the plain sea salt for the low kH in case i need to do a lot of large fast water changes due to a massive goof. The IO is over 10.5kH which is fine for 10% changes but would make a bad situation worse in large doses, i run alk at 7.0 in the display. I'm also getting the component 123 pack of 3 x 5L balling solutions simply because i like the idea of daily supplement of elements with the alk, calcium and Mg in between my weekly 10% water changes.



I was asking Dave's advice on what i could do to save BJ yesterday and asked if he had any nice acros in since i hadn't bought anything in almost 6 weeks !

'Not really anything you'd think was special'

'So nothing at all that you think i'd like, c'mon Dave you know by now what acros i go for, there must be something you can hold for me until i come in a day or two'

'Well there's a couple of small milli pieces that came in pretty browned out from Christian that look ordinary but he made a fuss about them so i dunno'

'Hang on, what do you mean by Christian made a fuss about the cruddy looking millis ?'

'Well he pointed them out as being very cool colors and they were more than all the other pieces he sent'

'Did he say what color they were Dave ?'

'Uhhhh, there's pink and yellow'

'So one is supposed to be pink and one is yellow, is that it ?'

'No, one of them is a yellow branch with hot pink ends and the other....'

'Dave stop, just stop ok - i want you to hold both of the pieces Christian made a fuss about regardless of what they look like now ok, i want to be clear here Dave and don't you dare say no #%$#$ obligation to buy - i want you to hold the fussy millis for me ok'

'I'll put them aside for you'

'Both pieces Dave'

'Yep i'll hold them until you get in'

After 10 mins discussing my sick fish i repeated

'You're holding those pieces for me right'

'Yes i'm moving them away from the others right now'

'You're a good man Dave'

A few minutes later i receive a pic from Dave

'Doesn't look great but Christian listed it as yellow and hot pink'

As i looked at the 'browned out' acro that was listed as yellow and hot pink i thought that i might treat Dave to an eye check and buy him some #$#@E$ glasses ! :facepalm: