AEFW - zeo treatment worth it?

[Allmost]

woah thats a long reply.

I protect my intellectuall property at what I do. there is no way I would release my designs for free on the net. and I charge premium for my products. [electrical stuff that has nothing to do with reefing but just using it as an example] so I understand completly if KZ does the same.

you are correct about the cost most likely. sometimes I put together just 2 resistors, and sell it at redicolous price ... the cost of the resistors is about 6 cents ... while I charge 60 dollars for the product ! if you can make the same, you are welcome to do a DIY .... same goes with KZ products .... you are welcome to make your own flatworm stop ... if you know how to get rid of them.

lastly, I am one of the users of this product, and posted my observations it has proved to work for me.

I wish you luck on achieving the same results [in terms of AEFW damage] but I was not able to make my corals healthy enough to stand the flatworms, the product flatworm stopped helped me with that. so for me, its worth the price

but I will admit again, that when I said they are gone, I meant I dont see damage from them anymore. I dont know if they are still in the system or not.

 

[fcmatt]

woah thats a long reply.

I protect my intellectuall property at what I do. there is no way I would release my designs for free on the net. and I charge premium for my products. [electrical stuff that has nothing to do with reefing but just using it as an example] so I understand completly if KZ does the same.

I am not sure I agree with medications for live animals that do not list the
ingredients/"design". Would you consume a medication yourself that did not list the
active and inactive ingredients? How about for your cat or dog?

Well I would not do it for my cat so why would I do it for my fish and coral?

We need the hobby manufacturers to be more professional about the products
they sell if we ever want to take things to the next level. Basically start
operating like a producer of vitamins, medications, etc for cats and dogs.

If the ingredients can be found at a local grocery store, home depot, and a
compounding pharmacy for pennies on the dollar of what they charge that is just
too bad for the manufacturers if they wish to keep an air of respectability in my mind.
They will actually have to give added value to keep us from making our own via
convenience, guidance/support, research, ease of use, etc..

So we as consumers need to step up and stop falling for these products time
after time and demand proof before a single thing is sold. Just because one
works and ten fail does not mean what we have now is correct and appropriate.

I guess when you reach a certain point of considering your tank inhabitants to be pets
that are with you for years on end you tend to demand more (an ingredient
list, research done on it with results, etc..) from such products that have the
potential to do good or harm.

I will get off my soap box now.

 

[Allmost]

okay at this point, I have to ask. 1. are you dealing with AEFW right now ?
2. have you read to see what this product claims to do ?

I am not sure I agree with medications for live animals that do not list the
ingredients/"design". Would you consume a medication yourself that did not list the
active and inactive ingredients? How about for your cat or dog?

THIS is not a medication.

Well I would not do it for my cat so why would I do it for my fish and coral?

We need the hobby manufacturers to be more professional about the products
they sell if we ever want to take things to the next level. Basically start
operating like a producer of vitamins, medications, etc for cats and dogs.

If the ingredients can be found at a local grocery store, home depot, and a
compounding pharmacy for pennies on the dollar of what they charge that is just
too bad for the manufacturers if they wish to keep an air of respectability in my mind.
They will actually have to give added value to keep us from making our own via
convenience, guidance/support, research, ease of use, etc..

So we as consumers need to step up and stop falling for these products time
after time and demand proof before a single thing is sold. Just because one
works and ten fail does not mean what we have now is correct and appropriate.

wrong again, who has failed using this ?

I guess when you reach a certain point of considering your tank inhabitants to be pets
that are with you for years on end you tend to demand more (an ingredient
list, research done on it with results, etc..) from such products that have the
potential to do good or harm.

I will get off my soap box now.

again .... the price, is for the intellectual property ! NOT the ingredients ! you need to understand this ! there are ALOT of softwares out there, costing alot ! and all there is to it, is some thousand lines of codes ... the codes are in english too ! do you ever email Microsoft and demand a free windows cause it can be typed by anyone ? do you call apple to make them put their operating system for free on the net ? NO ! that's their intellectual property, and they get to charge US who want to use it !


but I will agree, that IF thomas pohl and ppl like him revealed their secrets, the hobby might be more advanced. ALOT more advanced. but you can not blame them ! just like how I want to be paid for my designs, they too need to be paid for their findings or .... we had the same discussion with regards to testing and varification of processor systems in a seminar I went to many years ago. there were no papers on it, cause intel and sun system and apple and motorolla and so on, kept their testing methods secrets ! this was pushing engineers backwards ! so they finally agreed on sharing the info, to let the engineers and Phds work on it, and in last 5 years we see a huge jump in the field.


Lastly, you speak about good or harm ! what harm ? we are talking about IT working or not working on getting rid of AEFW DAMAGE ! [NOT working or not working to get RID of AEFW and not if the product does any harm. none has ever been reported. ]

 

[fcmatt]

1. I am not dealing with AEFW.

2. Yes I have read what this product claims to do. It does not claim to kill AEFW. It only
claims to "strengthens all kind of corals" which in turn it is supposed to reduce AEFW.
?Thicker slime? gets tossed around as the reason why acros can fight off AEFW.

I am also using the term medication loosely. If a product strengthens corals it could be
classified according to this definition of medication:

"A pharmaceutical drug, also referred to as medicine, medication or medicament, can be loosely defined as any chemical substance intended for use in the medical diagnosis, cure, treatment, or prevention of disease." (wikipedia).

Who has failed? Why the same sort of hobbyists who say it is working. Results vary and
one should also note that almost every post I have read online by happy users of this product
almost always add in other removal techniques I listed in a previous post. Same goes for
users who are not having a good time with it. Anyone can use google to read people's
reports. I just picked one quickly. There are more.

"40 days in, still finding AEFW. Still blasting & basting and started to go back to dipping my corals which I hate to do. All I've seen is a TEMPORARY increase in PE (hour maybe), and nothing else.

I've seen an increase in Red bugs, and an increase in the frequency of finding AEFW since using the product and have had NO additions to the tank. I've really had to up the other treatments to keep things in check (blasting w/a maxijet and basting w/a turkey baster, then dipping whatever pieces I know will tolerate it in revive. I also got to the end of my rope w/red bugs and treated my tank with interceptor this past week (they are gone now)). I've had AEFW in my tank over a year at this point, and managed to keep them in check with just blasting & basting. Unfortunately I can't say that flatworm stop has done anything to break the pattern at this point. 50 days left to go.

I've also got threads going on the zeovit forum. Seems the only people who claim it is working for them are people with full blown zeo systems. I don't know if It's something that needs to be used in conjuction with other zeo products, or blatant fanboyism. My questions go unasnwered on that forum. "
http://www.reef 2 reef.com/forums/general-sps-discussion/83462-zeovit-flatworm-stop-reviews-3.html

Intellectual property is one thing. Throwing out a product with the name flatworm stop
that may just contain the same ingredients that other products already on the market
have is just marketing balls. But who knows? That is the one thing this product has in
common with snake oil. One cannot verify it without going through a huge expense and
use of time that SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY THE MANUFACTURER and released to the
public so they can make a knowledgeable decision if they wish to buy the product or not.

"The phrase snake oil is as a derogatory term used to describe quackery, the promotion of fraudulent or unproven medical practices. The expression is also applied metaphorically to any product with questionable and/or unverifiable quality or benefit." (wikipedia)

Harm can come from a person thinking the product might work for them. It does not work
as expected and time has been lost which could have been used on more traditional
methods of removing the coral from the display, putting them in QT, and using a dip KNOWN (fact)
to kill AEFW, place back in QT, repeat the process, until all signs of AEFW are gone.

Do I mean harm that the product will outright kill your coral? No. I do not think I said that
though.

Time will tell though. Products like this come and go. Only products that actually work stand
the test of time and are available for years to come. Perhaps one of the coral gurus that
frequent forums like this will do a study on the product and release their work. I know it
is beyond my resources to do such.

 

[Allmost]

I think this discussion applies to ppl with AEFW, or ppl who have tried KZ products.

sorry but if you dont have the pest, and have never dealt with their product, then ...

read above, many ppl who DO NOT use KZ products have admitted it worked for them, so your post is void.

happy reefing.

 

[Allmost]

Harm can come from a person thinking the product might work for them. It does not work
as expected and time has been lost which could have been used on more traditional
methods of removing the coral from the display, putting them in QT, and using a dip KNOWN (fact)
to kill AEFW, place back in QT, repeat the process, until all signs of AEFW are gone.

posts like this grind my gears ... why are you posting results of something u have never tried ? the product sais youneed to use it for 3 months. ... you dont have the pest, you have never tried it, yet you are saying it doesnt work ? oh come on !!!


cyber reefing ...

 

[karsseboom]

Have you read the instructions on the bottle? Does it say it will rid your tank of Aefw or does it say it will promote healthier acro so they may fight off the pest. The stuff doesn't kill Aefw end of story.

 

[sahin]

posts like this grind my gears ... why are you posting results of something u have never tried ? the product sais youneed to use it for 3 months. ... you dont have the pest, you have never tried it, yet you are saying it doesnt work ? oh come on !!!


cyber reefing ...

FCmatt: Have you used the product? I can see the point Allmost is making here.

I'll be honest and say that I am very skeptical as to whether this product works, but it is just that; my own skepticism.

What we need now, is for those people who have used the product for the prescribed time period and who believe the AEFW's have been eradicated, to come back in say 6 months time and report back.

As SPS reefkeepers we need to work together in finding something that can help.

OK, so this product doesnt claim to be a AEFW killer, but if it works by a mechanism which makes the coral produce extra slime which hinders AEFW feeding, then that itself, can in fact, over time, indirectly eliminate AEFW.

I believe that is quite feasible.

If the AEFW's food source is limited then that will have an effect on their reproductive rates. In time, such factors can cause the population to crash.

 

[AcroporAddict]

I am using Flatworm Stop and K Balance in my 300 gallon reef. I dip all my corals when I introduce them and saw one that was RTNing from the base up, so I dipped and several flew off. I couldn't find any eggs on the coral/base itself, and I dipped all the acro colonies around it. I decided to try the FWS/K Bal combo after reading it on the ZEO Forum. Dosing 11ml of each daily. I am also inspecting all my corals every couple days. Been dosing for about three weeks now. I haven't seen any other damage from the AEFWs, and the corals are looking great.

I'm just hoping they were isolated to that one colony, but only time will tell.

I will say that when I opened up the FWS the first time, I had an urge to sprinkle it on a salad. Smelled like some Balsamic Vinegar dressing I had in the fridge.

I can't say it is working yet, but if it helps then that's great. I personally would find it hard to believe that KZ/Zeovit would jeopardize their reputation and the income they make from the Zeo Line for a quick buck on a fake AEFW treatment. Just doesn't make fiscal sense to me. Money made from the FWS has to be a drop in the bucket compared to the income from the entire ZEO line. I doubt they'd shoot themselves in the foot like that.

 

[fcmatt]

FCmatt: Have you used the product? I can see the point Allmost is making here.

I'll be honest and say that I am very skeptical as to whether this product works, but it is just that; my own skepticism.

What we need now, is for those people who have used the product for the prescribed time period and who believe the AEFW's have been eradicated, to come back in say 6 months time and report back.

As SPS reefkeepers we need to work together in finding something that can help.

OK, so this product doesnt claim to be a AEFW killer, but if it works by a mechanism which makes the coral produce extra slime which hinders AEFW feeding, then that itself, can in fact, over time, indirectly eliminate AEFW.

I believe that is quite feasible.

If the AEFW's food source is limited then that will have an effect on their reproductive rates. In time, such factors can cause the population to crash.

I have not used the product. I do not have AEFW.
But I have successfully battled other pests.
Flatworm stop is to aefw that garlic is to ich in my mind right now.

Your post is reasonable and people are waiting to see the results of user's
experimenting with the product. But on the other side of the debate we have
people claiming it is working, people saying the pest is gone, when in reality
they have no idea if it is true or not. Once again no different then healthy
fish in a tank that does have ich. Both pests just waiting for the right time to
pop up again and may not be visible.

I am also noticing that almost every user of this product uses other methods
at the same time to reduce/eliminate the pest.

I am also unsure where the whole slime thing came into being. It was not
mentioned anywhere by Pohl that I can find.

Either way.. I may be the most vocal negative responder but allmost (big ray)
is a hard core proponent. The product line from this manufacturer can never
be wrong based on reading his posts. So lets throw out both of our opinions a
and wait for others

 

[fcmatt]

I personally would find it hard to believe that KZ/Zeovit would jeopardize their reputation and the income they make from the Zeo Line for a quick buck on a fake AEFW treatment. Just doesn't make fiscal sense to me. Money made from the FWS has to be a drop in the bucket compared to the income from the entire ZEO line. I doubt they'd shoot themselves in the foot like that.

The catch is they have clearly stated this product does not kill AEFW.
It "strengthens corals" in some fashion. Thus if it does not help a user with his
AEFW problem there are a million reasons why that happened and one can
never blame the product in totality.

 

[Allmost]

I have not used the product. I do not have AEFW.
But I have successfully battled other pests.
Flatworm stop is to aefw that garlic is to ich in my mind right now.

Your post is reasonable and people are waiting to see the results of user's
experimenting with the product. But on the other side of the debate we have
people claiming it is working, people saying the pest is gone, when in reality
they have no idea if it is true or not. Once again no different then healthy
fish in a tank that does have ich. Both pests just waiting for the right time to
pop up again and may not be visible.

I am also noticing that almost every user of this product uses other methods
at the same time to reduce/eliminate the pest.

I am also unsure where the whole slime thing came into being. It was not
mentioned anywhere by Pohl that I can find.

Either way.. I may be the most vocal negative responder but allmost (big ray)
is a hard core proponent. The product line from this manufacturer can never
be wrong based on reading his posts. So lets throw out both of our opinions a
and wait for others

you are showing the value of your words, when posting about something u have not tried and ....
it would be like if I started posting about an airplane engine which I have never seen or have any Idea about ....... pilots would say keep ure opinions to ureself, untill u see one or use one or fly one and they would not take my word ! cause it is worthless !

you are just trying to make Zeovit look bad here, while u have not used it. thats sad !

if you do not have AEFW, and have not tried Flatworm stop, you should not be responding here, or giving opinions based on nothing.

I do LOVE Zeovit line of supplements ! it lets me keep more fish, and it lets me have no Fuge, which is helpfull in my case living in a small apartment. so yes ! I have gotten good results from it [among many, I am not he only one], and I do tell others about my EXPERIENCE. You on the other hand, have NEVER USED IT, and are posting based on nothing. what do you call a person that has an opinion on something he doesnt know about and has no experience about ? I think there is a word for someone like that!

 

[AcroporAddict]

The catch is they have clearly stated this product does not kill AEFW.
It "strengthens corals" in some fashion. Thus if it does not help a user with his
AEFW problem there are a million reasons why that happened and one can
never blame the product in totality.

I guess what I'm saying is I have more respect for the Zeo Line Makers than to believe they'd rely on the excuse "we didn't say it kills FWs." or something like that. Because even though it is not a FW killer, someone that uses it for three months and continues to see FW in their system is gonna lose some faith in the Zeo Line as a whole. I'm sure they thought of this before they started selling FW Stop.

Again, it all boils down to the make a quick buck scenario, and I just don't think ZEO would jeopardize their rep for some quick cash. That is not to say that FW Stop will work 100% of the time. Even though Tech M worked for me for Bryopsis, I can't say it will work all the time for everyone, even though many use it with success. Perhaps there are differing strains of AEFWs that have varying distaste for the effect produced by FW Stop?

 

[fcmatt]

you are showing the value of your words, when posting about something u have not tried and ....
it would be like if I started posting about an airplane engine which I have never seen or have any Idea about ....... pilots would say keep ure opinions to ureself, untill u see one or use one or fly one and they would not take my word ! cause it is worthless !

you are just trying to make Zeovit look bad here, while u have not used it. thats sad !

if you do not have AEFW, and have not tried Flatworm stop, you should not be responding here, or giving opinions based on nothing.

I do LOVE Zeovit line of supplements ! it lets me keep more fish, and it lets me have no Fuge, which is helpfull in my case living in a small apartment. so yes ! I have gotten good results from it [among many, I am not he only one], and I do tell others about my EXPERIENCE. You on the other hand, have NEVER USED IT, and are posting based on nothing. what do you call a person that has an opinion on something he doesnt know about and has no experience about ? I think there is a word for someone like that!

but here you are praising this product with no true certainty that the pest is gone, basically
adding another never ending cost to keeping your tank around, and now going down to the
level of using hypothetical insults.

i am also unclear how being in the hobby of salt water tanks since i was 16 years old (now 37)
somehow makes my opinion worthless due to not having used this product which is just
another supplement with no ingredient list that supposedly strengthens coral to fight off
aefw? just how many times does one have to see the same old games being played before
you realize there is rarely an easy fix to husbandry when you take short cuts when building
and setting up your tank and live stock?

i should just take a bottle of amino acids or what have you and slap a label on it. it would be
called flatworm repel and the same exact thread we have here would take place. guaranteed.
some will say it worked and others would not.

 

[Jay4Robin]

Over 60 sps frags placed into my system in the last 5 months.
Dipped them all with prohibit or revive .
I run a zeovit system so I started the FW stop a few months ago.

My sps look great. I just started the coral booster that was released.


I would think that at least a few eggs made it into my system . I am a believer that the stuff works!

 

[reefkeeper2]

Any updates? Any success stories using this product or is the jury still out?

 

[Allmost]

Any updates? Any success stories using this product or is the jury still out?

I think other companies trying to copy the product speaks for itself

most ppl on this thread who never tried it, still call it snake oil ... lol

and ppl who have tried it and were skeptical, now have AEFW free reefs [or at least no visible damage from them]

and of course, it did not work for some .... but what is 100% ? Ive seen ppl having Issues using po4 removers ... bad luck or the way it was used or ... who knows why

 

[minhvu]

I've been using it since March. I stopped blowing off the corals as soon as I started flatworm stop. I am happy to say that I have not seen a flatworm or any bite mark for a few months. My corals are happy once again and I'm able to keep millies and tricolor acros again.

 

[Atomikk]

Some are not getting the results

Some are not getting the results

Take a look at this thread (at the bottom)..

http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253718&posted=1

FWIW I am using FWS since mid July and I am still holding hope that things will prevail.

 

[Jay4Robin]

He is a Zeo Head in training. It does not count :spin3:

FWIW its better then losing all your across. Everything I have read so far shows it at least gets them under control.
I would rather have a few spots then to watch a colony get destroyed.

I have been using it for over 3 months. 99% sps tank over 50 frags. I am able to sleep at night. A friend from the local club was infested and he started about a month ago and his corals are healing up.
It may not be a cure but it keeps them under control or maybe even rids them after a while.