Algae Scrubber Basics

jomain said:
Hello,
I'm planning to build an almost purely NPS tank, with heavy continuous feeding, in the spirit of what Uhuru has been showing us: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2054030

However, I'd like to try it without skimmer, in an attempt to conserve a decent planktonic life. So I'm looking at alternative options, and an ATS scrubber seems pretty ideal. But just to be safer, I'd like to supplement it with a mud refugium growing chaeto. Now, I'm not sure if this makes sense, as they have pretty much the same function and probably compete with one another, right? The idea is just that such a refugium could harbor more life and give out more food to the tank than just a scrubber.

Also, on the physics of ATS, there's a point on which I'm not clear: how good is it at nitrification? I understand how it does the denitrification part, with the algae feeding of nitrates, but what about the first part of the cycle? In case of heavy feeding, would it make sense to supplement with something capable of heavy nitrification, like a fluidized sand bed?

How about trace elements? I'm reeding from the Reef Aquarium Vol. 3 that they may get depleted fast with so much algae growing (and yes, a skimmer also export these). Are there common elements that you guys add in your ATS systems? Iron and Manganese?

Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...

A scrubber should work well on the NPS tank. If you could have the scrubber above the display the pods will be a great food supply. Mud is fine, the chaeto will complete, but the amount of feeding for the tank should allow both.

Build the scrubber to the amount being fed and you should be fine. The algae will readily take up ammo, nitrite, nitrate and phosphates. As its made available...

I believe the trace elements thing is a lot of snake oil... I believe the food we feed is far more likely to provide corals with so called trace elements needed better then the water column could... Just my 2 cents...
 
srusso said:
I believe the trace elements thing is a lot of snake oil... I believe the food we feed is far more likely to provide corals with so called trace elements needed better then the water column could... Just my 2 cents...
Click to expand...

I'm clearly not experienced enough to judge, but at least on iron and manganese, I thought it was well accepted that algae needs a lot of this to grow. Are you basically saying that water changes (or food?) are enough to provide this?
 
Ok, so remember that little HOB filter ATS I set up (I had some pictures on her to show the design)? Well, the thing works like a champ for the first 4 weeks. It started growing GHA within the second week and I was harvesting a decent amount every week. Now, for the past 2 or 3 weeks though, the mesh is being taken over by red slime algae (I had a problem with it in my DT) and the GHA underneath it is turning a little yellow in certain spots. Has anyone had this happen to them? Now, the red slime algae has moved out of the the DT but the GHA is coming back in my DT....
 
cnr005, looked up your past posts and viewed your album. I don't know if there are current pics on there or not. But it looks like the screen is a larger mesh, maybe 5 holes/in (#5) when #7 works better. However with your HOB the flow-thru with #5 might be OK. But it cuts down on your effective area.

A horizontal scrubber will only be 1/4 as effective as a 2-sided waterfall, per unit area. So yours looks like maybe 2" x 6" = 12 sq in, 12/12=1 cube/day (2 sided) but only 1/4 cube/day since it's horizontal/slanted.

Also, when you say it grew green algae well, this might be relative. A waterfall scrubber can produce algae that can be over 1/2" thick when removed from the water if it's growing well, and I've had it over an inch off the screen in a 3D box.

But what may have happened is that the scrubber initially pulled down nutrients then 'ran out of steam', meaning it partially exhausted the nutrients in the water, and it is not leeching from the rocks/sand, which means the cyano has a great breeding ground and gets first shot at these nutrients as it leeches out. If the scrubber is strong enough, this will eventually go away and not return, as the only N and P will be in the water as food is broken down, and the scrubber will remove this before it has a chance to soak into the LR/sand.

However I'm not sure the latter is what is going on. Sounds like it just might be a weak scrubber. I think I would need more pics of tank and scrubber and info on the system.
 
jomain said:
I'm clearly not experienced enough to judge, but at least on iron and manganese, I thought it was well accepted that algae needs a lot of this to grow. Are you basically saying that water changes (or food?) are enough to provide this?
Click to expand...

Alk, Cal and Mag must be maintained, figured that was a given, sorry. Iron should only be dosed if you are getting yellowish growth, and increasing flow, or reducing photo period didn't help. However, I have messed around with dosing iron pills but after time I didn't notice much of a difference in growth of the algae scrubber... Also there aren't any known guide lines for dosing with an algae scrubber that I have seen at least.
 
cnr005, looked up your past posts and viewed your album. I don't know if there are current pics on there or not. But it looks like the screen is a larger mesh, maybe 5 holes/in (#5) when #7 works better. However with your HOB the flow-thru with #5 might be OK. But it cuts down on your effective area.

A horizontal scrubber will only be 1/4 as effective as a 2-sided waterfall, per unit area. So yours looks like maybe 2" x 6" = 12 sq in, 12/12=1 cube/day (2 sided) but only 1/4 cube/day since it's horizontal/slanted.

Also, when you say it grew green algae well, this might be relative. A waterfall scrubber can produce algae that can be over 1/2" thick when removed from the water if it's growing well, and I've had it over an inch off the screen in a 3D box.

But what may have happened is that the scrubber initially pulled down nutrients then 'ran out of steam', meaning it partially exhausted the nutrients in the water, and it is not leeching from the rocks/sand, which means the cyano has a great breeding ground and gets first shot at these nutrients as it leeches out. If the scrubber is strong enough, this will eventually go away and not return, as the only N and P will be in the water as food is broken down, and the scrubber will remove this before it has a chance to soak into the LR/sand.

However I'm not sure the latter is what is going on. Sounds like it just might be a weak scrubber. I think I would need more pics of tank and scrubber and info on the system.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. I definitely agree that the scrubber is not ideal. The mesh is the best that I could find in Korea at the time and started growing GHA so I didn't feel the need to have some sent from the states. I'm dealing with very constricting circumstances (space, available supplies, etc.), so I'm just trying to do the best I can with what I have. I feel that I am probably dealing with P and N leaching out from the sand and rocks. I had a little glory period there for a bit but then things started getting green a week after the red was gone. I had stopped running GFO after I got the ATS running but I have started using it again, and GAC, to try and combat the situation I have now. Operating without a sump and an ok, at best, RO unit has proven to more frustrating than all get out :headwally:
 
I'm going to try and get some pics up to show what type of growth I'm talking about though. It definitely wasn't ever as good as the more successful ones I have seen on here. It had growth after four days but it just kind of plateaued at about week 3-4.
 
So ........i dont know if this has been talked about in the 3800 post on this thread butif a skimmer and a ats do different thing why not put a uas in the reaction chamber of a skimmer. Beefore I modified my sump I would get gha in my skimmer.
 
So ........i dont know if this has been talked about in the 3800 post on this thread butif a skimmer and a ats do different thing why not put a uas in the reaction chamber of a skimmer. Beefore I modified my sump I would get gha in my skimmer.
 
Someone on another site did a CAD / sketchup mockup of exactly that, an HOB UAS with a skimmer collection cup at the top.

I (and srusso) though of that almost immediately, the issue being access to the screen for cleaning, and lighting a round container, etc etc you get the idea. Feel free to try it, theoretically it is a perfect marriage!
 
Floyd R Turbo said:
Someone on another site did a CAD / sketchup mockup of exactly that, an HOB UAS with a skimmer collection cup at the top.

I (and srusso) though of that almost immediately, the issue being access to the screen for cleaning, and lighting a round container, etc etc you get the idea. Feel free to try it, theoretically it is a perfect marriage!
Click to expand...

wow, refreshed the screen and you beat me too it! lol
 
Brown algae before green?

Brown algae before green?

I've had my ATS up and running for four days now and its growing a crazy amount of algae but its all the wrong kind. There are only a few specks of green and the rest is a nasty brown and red bubble. My screen is 10 x 22, light one sided with (2) 40 watt cfls in 10" round reflectors, they are placed 3.5" from the screen. Flow is 275 g/h. Does the brown come before the green? I'll get some pictures up later today.
 
yes brown will typically come before green, and it takes 4-6 weeks for a screen to fully mature from scratch.

I see a few things I question based on the information you posted, but I think pics would help me best understand your setup, so before I go off on a wild tangent about what you can do to improve anything, please post those so I have the full picture of what's going on.

Also, please answer:

1) how much are you feeding (cube equivalents)
2) 10 x 22 - which is the width vs height
3) screen roughed up?
4) how many hours are the scrubber lights on?

etc...like I said pics are best...
 
Thanks for the help Floyd. I feed about 6 cubes/day, sometimes more when I feed the eel silversides. The screen is 10" wide and 22" long. The screen is roughed up really good. I leave the lights on 18 hours/day with (2) 40 watt cfls, 2700k. I've read all of the highlights you've pointed me to and a huge portion of this thread. Here are some pictures of what I have going on after 4 days of running the ATS. I know its a big screen but I have a HUGE algae problem in my tank right now.
http://s631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/01Andy/ATS/
 
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