Christian J
New member
Does anyone know how SantaMonica (I think) arrived at the "one square inch of screen per gallon of tank water" rule? Surely what's important is how much you feed and what other nutrient export methods that are in use?
algea scrubber
- Thread starter jimmyrow
- Start date
widmer
Drug Enthusiast
Well, this hobby is built around general rules that the average person can start with. I'm guessing that through all of SM's experimentation and observation of other peoples successes and failures, he probably found this to be a good approximation. Of course it's not rigid.
For the ATS I'm building, I'm going with:
Single sided vertical
~3 square inches/gallon
~30 gph/linear inch
"screen" is made out of aragonite cement
warm white LEDs @ ~1 watt per 5 square inches. My super rough approximation finds that this is about as much light as 1 watt of CFL per square inch
You can experiment around all you want, but they say that an undersized/underperforming ATS is close to the same as having no ATS.
For the ATS I'm building, I'm going with:
Single sided vertical
~3 square inches/gallon
~30 gph/linear inch
"screen" is made out of aragonite cement
warm white LEDs @ ~1 watt per 5 square inches. My super rough approximation finds that this is about as much light as 1 watt of CFL per square inch
You can experiment around all you want, but they say that an undersized/underperforming ATS is close to the same as having no ATS.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
It does sound that you would want to consider those factors. The one inch is just a guide line but it is a good one though. It comes from Dr. Adey's Dynamic Aquaria. He is the inventor of the ATS.
Algae is self scaling so it grows faster or slower according to the nutrient load. It's important to have enough surface area, light and turbulence.
Given enough room and the optimal environment to grow, it will rise to the occasion. I over sized my ATS because I chronically over feed. I really don't think that I needed too. If it is too efficient though, I cut back on the light period.
Algae is self scaling so it grows faster or slower according to the nutrient load. It's important to have enough surface area, light and turbulence.
Given enough room and the optimal environment to grow, it will rise to the occasion. I over sized my ATS because I chronically over feed. I really don't think that I needed too. If it is too efficient though, I cut back on the light period.
King_Richard
New member
Mean Well LPC-35-700W: x1
CREE XR-E Warm White: x12
I would rather do the xp-g warm, but the led supplier doesn't carry them yet. So, I'm thinking why not pull the trigger on these, they should compare reasonablly well to the cfl's and with 6 per side, 12x10 screen roughly, then it should be well lit.
In the mean time, I just got back from wally world, some local hardware stores and some fish stores. I ended picking up some stuff to whip together my 2x 26w CFL's per side, 1 6500k and one ?k soft white and this got me thinking. If I'm going to spend 7$ on a pack every 3-4 months, then why not just go ahead with the led's. It'd be a 90$ one time cost for the next 10 years roughly and it would only be using 36w instead of 104w. On the other hand, I'm considering:
Mean Well LPC-35-700W: x1
CREE XR-E Warm White: x8
CREE XP-G Neutral White: x2
CREE XP-G R5 Cool White: x2
These would be 4 warms, 1 neutral, and 1 cool white on each side. Mainly the mixture just for the comfort of knowing that I'd have a broader spectrum covered. But it would also cost a bit extra. Just an idea so far, gotta actually see if it's affordable before I went ahead with it. But, which combo's would work better?
CREE XR-E Warm White: x12
I would rather do the xp-g warm, but the led supplier doesn't carry them yet. So, I'm thinking why not pull the trigger on these, they should compare reasonablly well to the cfl's and with 6 per side, 12x10 screen roughly, then it should be well lit.
In the mean time, I just got back from wally world, some local hardware stores and some fish stores. I ended picking up some stuff to whip together my 2x 26w CFL's per side, 1 6500k and one ?k soft white and this got me thinking. If I'm going to spend 7$ on a pack every 3-4 months, then why not just go ahead with the led's. It'd be a 90$ one time cost for the next 10 years roughly and it would only be using 36w instead of 104w. On the other hand, I'm considering:
Mean Well LPC-35-700W: x1
CREE XR-E Warm White: x8
CREE XP-G Neutral White: x2
CREE XP-G R5 Cool White: x2
These would be 4 warms, 1 neutral, and 1 cool white on each side. Mainly the mixture just for the comfort of knowing that I'd have a broader spectrum covered. But it would also cost a bit extra. Just an idea so far, gotta actually see if it's affordable before I went ahead with it. But, which combo's would work better?
widmer
Drug Enthusiast
I like the way you're thinking. But as far as I can tell, between Cree's cool-neutral-warm XP-G series, there isn't actually any difference in the parts of the spectrum suppled (except that the warm whites extend it further into the red), there is just a difference in the relative amount of the parts supplied.
But the whole time I've been planning to go with warm whites, I have been wondering if it would be a good idea to supply some cooler whites - not to blend them evenly, but to create parts of the screen that are lit by a different supply of light, in order to potentially increase the variety of algae that might grow.
But the whole time I've been planning to go with warm whites, I have been wondering if it would be a good idea to supply some cooler whites - not to blend them evenly, but to create parts of the screen that are lit by a different supply of light, in order to potentially increase the variety of algae that might grow.
widmer
Drug Enthusiast
Let me run an idea past the members here who have more experience with ATS than me:
My next build is going to be a ~40g mixed reef, with high aspirations for SPS. Basically I'm mulling over two ATS options in my head:
Option A
For a long time now I've been planning to use a Tunze Silence 634gph pump, with a T'd off output so that it would act as both the return pump and the feed for the ATS. This would mean that the overflow is 300gph, and the ATS is getting 300 gph as well.
But if you think about it a little more critically, the ATS technically would only be putting through half of the water that's overflowing, and the other half would essentially keep cycling. This means that the ATS is putting through the tank's water at a rate of ~4x per hour. It's easier to picture if you follow the path of the water:
1. overflow is feeding 300 gph into the sump
2. Tunze is sucking 600 gph out of the sump
3. Half of Tunze output is going back to tank
4. Half of Tunze output is feeding the ATS
5. ATS drains back to the sump at 300 gph
6. Return to step 2.
Option B
The other option would be to configure it like a standard ATS and feed the entire overflow into the screen. This would mean that the entire output of the Tunze could be used to push water back to the tank, increasing overflow rate to 600 gph.
This would also mean that I'm putting the tank's volume through the ATS 15x per hour.
So on the one hand it seems like a no-brainer, as far as getting more flow to the ATS. But on the other hand, I wonder if I would actually notice any difference in the aquarium regardless of which way it's set up? I guess this is more of a question about at what point does the efficiency of an ATS max out, and any more ATS is just extra?
Anyone have any input?
My next build is going to be a ~40g mixed reef, with high aspirations for SPS. Basically I'm mulling over two ATS options in my head:
Option A
For a long time now I've been planning to use a Tunze Silence 634gph pump, with a T'd off output so that it would act as both the return pump and the feed for the ATS. This would mean that the overflow is 300gph, and the ATS is getting 300 gph as well.
But if you think about it a little more critically, the ATS technically would only be putting through half of the water that's overflowing, and the other half would essentially keep cycling. This means that the ATS is putting through the tank's water at a rate of ~4x per hour. It's easier to picture if you follow the path of the water:
1. overflow is feeding 300 gph into the sump
2. Tunze is sucking 600 gph out of the sump
3. Half of Tunze output is going back to tank
4. Half of Tunze output is feeding the ATS
5. ATS drains back to the sump at 300 gph
6. Return to step 2.
Option B
The other option would be to configure it like a standard ATS and feed the entire overflow into the screen. This would mean that the entire output of the Tunze could be used to push water back to the tank, increasing overflow rate to 600 gph.
This would also mean that I'm putting the tank's volume through the ATS 15x per hour.
So on the one hand it seems like a no-brainer, as far as getting more flow to the ATS. But on the other hand, I wonder if I would actually notice any difference in the aquarium regardless of which way it's set up? I guess this is more of a question about at what point does the efficiency of an ATS max out, and any more ATS is just extra?
Anyone have any input?
srusso
Active member
Its all driven by a Mag 7, so 700 gph... with head loss ~550 - 450, I'd guess.
It works well enough, but I have a Mag 12 I have been waiting to put in its place, I need to split my tank return in two b/c the way it is it blows sand out of the corner.
Thats only 4 days of growth... just figured out I needed more light, added two more 23w CFLs, now there are 4 total. Last harvest (before light upgrade) was +1 cup of algae, I will post my harvest next cleaning.
Although I may have to clean the screen tomorrow, I have a reef meeting at my house and I am demoing my ATS...
It works well enough, but I have a Mag 12 I have been waiting to put in its place, I need to split my tank return in two b/c the way it is it blows sand out of the corner.
Thats only 4 days of growth... just figured out I needed more light, added two more 23w CFLs, now there are 4 total. Last harvest (before light upgrade) was +1 cup of algae, I will post my harvest next cleaning.
Although I may have to clean the screen tomorrow, I have a reef meeting at my house and I am demoing my ATS...
kcress
New member
As far as I ever see you will not get different types. The conditions on the screen cater to one type and it takes-off. That's why ATSs work because one algae finds the screen conditions exemplary. So exemplary, that it can out-compete anything else in the system.
As for flow. More flow is more noise, more power, more heat. So if you can use a smaller pump and run it all past the screen you will have a more efficient "better" system.
Whether or not you pass the water past the screen once or twice shouldn't really matter because the screen can only extract some tiny percentage of nutrients each pass. Possibly getting up around 4 passes might actually start to make a negative difference in efficiency.
Keep in mind the negative aspects of water running thru a centrifugal pump. It tends to kill anything of reef usable size. So recycling means that many more dead pods, etc.
King_Richard
New member
Speaking of reflectors, my little diy last night was taking those 1$ plastic flower pots, cutting in half up to the base, sticking an all weather socket into a 1.5" or 1.25" pvc elbow, and attaching it all together. So far, nothing has melted, lol! It's kinda bulky though and not very clean looking but hey, it was cheap. The next step is to put some mylar film on the flower pots so they actually reflect light. I'll show ya's when I get to finishing them up again. Rite now I just got my RB LED's in for the display tank so I'll be busy with that for a bit.
I wen't the cheap route because the alluminum reflectors that I have in there too are starting to rust where the metal clips and stuff are. So I wanted all plastic and that's what I came up with.
I wen't the cheap route because the alluminum reflectors that I have in there too are starting to rust where the metal clips and stuff are. So I wanted all plastic and that's what I came up with.
widmer
Drug Enthusiast
Good points on the flow
I hadn't really thought about how it may potentially make a smoothie out of anything in the water.
Meanwhile, as the ATS would be fed continually-cycling water, I could see it being at a disadvantage as well because the water it is fed would theoretically always be at a lower nutrient level than the rest of the tank.
In regard to the energy efficiency - I'm using a Tunze Silence because in the reviews for this product, people are saying it's even quieter than a Maxi-jet.
Not to mention that it pushes 634 gph @ 30 watts. For my application where I don't have much head pressure, this completely blows every other pump out of the water. Comparison: Eheim 1260 = 635 gph @ 65 watts; Mag drive 5 = 500 gph @ 45 watts; Mag drive 7 = 700 gph @ 70 watts
etc etc
I hadn't really thought about how it may potentially make a smoothie out of anything in the water.
Meanwhile, as the ATS would be fed continually-cycling water, I could see it being at a disadvantage as well because the water it is fed would theoretically always be at a lower nutrient level than the rest of the tank.
In regard to the energy efficiency - I'm using a Tunze Silence because in the reviews for this product, people are saying it's even quieter than a Maxi-jet.
Not to mention that it pushes 634 gph @ 30 watts. For my application where I don't have much head pressure, this completely blows every other pump out of the water. Comparison: Eheim 1260 = 635 gph @ 65 watts; Mag drive 5 = 500 gph @ 45 watts; Mag drive 7 = 700 gph @ 70 watts
etc etc
srusso
Active member
Yeah I like the drop lights. The clip lights scare me... one bump and you have some major problems... :eek2: Plus at homedepot for only $6 each, cheaper then the clip light as well...
The light looks a lot brighter through the plastic in the picture then in person.
Yeah, I have been looking for some mylar myself... then my wife walked some in in the form of ballons for her baby shower. Now that's over... :smokin:
What should I use to glue the mylar to the inside of the drop light? Does mylar melt?
dogstar74
Premium Member
I like the Beanimal's overflow idea. But to keep it silent you have to have it nearly unobstructed. The variability of the growth of the algae, means that you could never really dial it in like the Bean overflow.
Plus I'd like to be able to take it off line and not have to re-direct the tank's major flow. For instance, if you're going on vacation for three weeks, It would be nice to take it offline, and plop the screen in the sump to keep it wet, so your tank babysitter doesn't have to fuss with a 1" hair algae mat.
Just a couple of my thoughts.
Aaron
Plus I'd like to be able to take it off line and not have to re-direct the tank's major flow. For instance, if you're going on vacation for three weeks, It would be nice to take it offline, and plop the screen in the sump to keep it wet, so your tank babysitter doesn't have to fuss with a 1" hair algae mat.
Just a couple of my thoughts.
Aaron
kcress
New member
srusso; If you've ever worked on a car with those plastic drop lights you'd want to smash them with a steamroller. They keep blinding you from the back. Then you get out the metal ones and they are so superior - until you accidentally touch the hot metal... Like I said, you can't win. Oh maybe if they were Mylar lined... LOL Mylar does melt. Maybe you'd get away with it using CFL bulbs though.
Thepopo; Your question is not clear. The algae growth can take from 3 days to a month to get going well. It all depends on you following the rules correctly.
dogstar74; That's when you need the handy dandy Revolver Screens. They just auto cycle one a week. You pull out all the spent ones when you return from vacation.
Thepopo; Your question is not clear. The algae growth can take from 3 days to a month to get going well. It all depends on you following the rules correctly.
dogstar74; That's when you need the handy dandy Revolver Screens. They just auto cycle one a week. You pull out all the spent ones when you return from vacation.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
Theres a couple things I'd like to point out.
You are going to hook a 630+GPH pump to a 40g tank??? Maybe i missed where you mentioned the size of the tank this is going to be connected to but thats a bit overkill... Well, depending on how high it has to push the water of course.
As far as the dillema with either running the scrubber with 50% of the overflow or 100%. I have done both, i havent noticed any difference in my readings. I have a 300g reef tank, self built, and it had dual 3/4" pvc running to my sump so that i had 2 pipes i could toy with or combine into one, which i currently have done. One pipe i had all the way open for draining and my second was about 1/2, to keep the overflow filled and reduce the noize. The one that was 1/2 open poored straight into the tank. Never had an issue with levels creeping up or anything, though that would be a 1:3 ratio and not a 1:1.
I forget the pump model i have but it does 750GPH, but i'm assuming with the elevation its only pumping close to 550. Theres a pretty strong current flowing though my tank, plus i have a couple 90g powerheads in there.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
Depends on the strength of light and how much free floating algae is in your tank to collect on you rscreen. For some people it has taken months, never worked out, or just a few days/weeks. I just upgraded mine because it was a little underpowered by light and too small for my tank, but it did really well. I posted a few days back about it and 3 days ago i have red algae growing on it and some green. I was going to add some more CFL's to it but i plan on upgrading them to LED as well. here shortly with the group buy we are doing shortly.
srusso
Active member
I had the same thing, and just last week upgraded my lighting. I was getting a lot of dark forest green colored algae. Added a second set of drop lights, one more on each side and I am getting tons more growth and a much brighter green color. (Lime green color)
Please post a picture or two of your setup. It always helps others to see design ideas!
Ps. I am loving all the algae scrubber threads that have started lately!
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