Amino Acids and SPS corals

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8628598#post8628598 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
... If that is not what you meant I don't follow. ...

My bad ... What I'm trying to get at is hard data (my data-mining has been unsuccessful so far) on the accumulation of FAA (from non-cellular sources) in host tissues.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8628598#post8628598 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
... most of the enrichment of detritus occurs due to microbial colonization. I'm not sure there's a lot we can do to influence that except to have much bigger sumps and refugia to allow time for more thorough colonization of detritus by microbes. ...

Indeed. Sorry for the poor wording ... I don't think of any particulates as being uncolonized (partially at least) after an hour or so. Any comments on bacterial-detritus scavenging of amino acids from the water column? BTW, I don't think we need to add additional apparatus (although a bacterial/detritus culturing vessel is not an uninteresting thought) ... frequent stirring of a SSB, or "turkey basting" LR surfaces suspend colonized particulates quite nicely.


TIA
:thumbsup:

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8608716#post8608716 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106

I would like to see someones SPS tank going from CRAP to MAJIC after ONLY changing the dossage of AA.

Interesting Thread.

Interesting expectation.......We all know a 'crap' reef is due to many factors being off target, and a 'magic' reef being down to many factors, so its unlikely that there are such examples to be found.

My take on this is that we need to ensure the right amount of N and P compounds to avoid bleaching (under fed)or browning (overfed) to see the rainbow that we are after.

In the efforts to get nutirents under control, some systems or methods can be so effective at nutrient reduction, that not enough Nand P is available and drops of a compound are just an easy way to deliver and adjust the amounts available to meet a reef's need at any given point in time.

Protean skimming is a crude nutrient reduction approach as it takes out anything that adhers to the water surphase. Feeding is a comparatively crude input as there could be excess nutrients not adsorbed by the animals, storing up potential problems a few months down the line.

A natural reef has vast quanties of nutrients passing through, with the inhabitants picking out what they need and the nutrients move on. In a tiny closed box, what we put in stays unless its exported.

All AAs do in my experience is provide a top up for what the sps need, over and above whatever the fish feeding requirement are.

As for the Q about brands - prodibio worked for me, but I prefer the ZEO AAHC as it provides greater flexability to adjust according to how the sps look.

JMO

Simon

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8619113#post8619113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Greg Hiller
>I didnt think the corals could uptake Amino Acids up through tissues through the water column?
-THey can't. <

Don't believe the scientists?

"Biosysnthesis of 'essential' amino acids by
scleractinian corals" - Fitzgerald and Szmant in Biochem, J, 1997,
322, 213-221.

Greg, I'm gonna re-read that one, but IIRC, the method of absorbtion is never established. IE, they could be eating them, they could be absorbing them. Proving that parts of them ended up in the coral doesnt prove whether theyre absorbed, or just consumed, and used as parts.

 

[Greg Hiller]

>the method of absorbtion is never established. IE, they could be eating them, they could be absorbing them. Proving that parts of them ended up in the coral doesnt prove whether theyre absorbed, or just consumed, and used as parts.<

IMO, it doesn't really matter how they are getting them into their bodies. The researchers simply added selected FAA (is this the abreviation we are using now?) to the water, and they were taken up by the coral as evidenced by the tracers. Presumably we could do the same....add them to the water, the coral takes them up. QED.

FWIW, I keep hearing people in this thread talk about how these supplements would be expensive. No way. Amino acids are dirt cheap. Once you know what to add it would be extremely inexpensive to whip the stuff up. No need to purchase it from some snake oil salesman.

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8630021#post8630021 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Greg Hiller
> Once you know what to add it would be extremely inexpensive to whip the stuff up.

Nice Greg

Have you got a recepy to share?

Thanks

Simon

 

[MCsaxmaster]

My bad ... What I'm trying to get at is hard data (my data-mining has been unsuccessful so far) on the accumulation of FAA (from non-cellular sources) in host tissues.

Here are a few:

Ferrier, M. 1991. Net uptake of dissolved free amino acids by four scleractinian corals. Coral Reefs 10(4): 183-187.

--corals take up DFAAs even at very low (natural) concentrations.

Al-Moghrabi, S, D Allemand and J Jaubert. 1993. Valine uptake by the scleractinian coral Galaxea fascicularis: characterization and effect of light and nutritional status. J Comp Physiol B 163: 355-362.

--there appear to be several mechanisms of uptake for valine. One of these mechanisms seems able only to take up neutral amino acids and activity is blocked with acid and basic AAs.

Allemand, D, E Tambutte, J Girard and J Jaubet. 1998. Organic matric synthesis in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata: role of biomineralization and potential target of the organotin tributylin. J Exp Biol 201: 2001â€"œ2009.

--DFAAs are taken up and put into tissue without any lag time. This means that either the internal pool is very small or recycled very quickly. There is a lag of about 20 min before incorporation into the organic matrix (10-30 min lag found in several other studies too, so something is definitely going on there). Also, aspartic acid is a major component of organic matrix.

Hoegh-Guldberg O and J Williamson. 1999. Availability of two
forms of dissolved nitrogen to the coral Pocillopora damicornis
and its symbiotic zooxanthellae. Mar Biol 133:561â€"œ570

--P. damicornis takes up ammonium and DFAAs. At natural concentrations DFAAs can contribute a max. of 11.3% of the N budget. P. damicornis was 7-10 times more effective at using ammonium as compared to DFAAs as an N source in the study.

Ambaryionto and O Hoegh-Guldberg. 1999. Net uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the giant clam, Tridacna maxima: alternative sources of energy and nitrogen? Coral Reefs 18: 91-96.

--not a coral. DFAAs are constantly taken up but contribute a max of 0.1% of the C budget and 1% of the N budget at nat. conc.

Most of the resent stuff looking at this has been done by the crew in Monaco and by Ove Hoegh-Gulberg (partnered up with others).

Indeed. Sorry for the poor wording ... I don't think of any particulates as being uncolonized (partially at least) after an hour or so. Any comments on bacterial-detritus scavenging of amino acids from the water column? BTW, I don't think we need to add additional apparatus (although a bacterial/detritus culturing vessel is not an uninteresting thought) ... frequent stirring of a SSB, or "turkey basting" LR surfaces suspend colonized particulates quite nicely.

Maybe so, but how long do particles of food (or even detritus) stick around in the water column? Usually all the food is pretty well gone in a few minutes whether I'm feeding fish, corals, or whetever. Getting a little detitus into suspension from turkey basting the rocks probably isn't a bad idea at all :rollface:

My take on this is that we need to ensure the right amount of N and P compounds to avoid bleaching (under fed)or browning (overfed) to see the rainbow that we are after.

Interstingly, not all N and P sources are necessarily the same in their influence on the corals. Inorganic N (ammonium, nitrate) and P (phosphate) are almost certainly taken up directly by the zooxanthellae. Some of this is then passed on to the coral. However, N and P gained from feeding on prey is put almost entirely into host tissue and little is actually passed to the zooxanthellae, at least over the first day or so (semi-recent studies that I just don't want to look up right now). So, the form of the N or P (N is more important than P in this context) can dramatically affect the fate of that N and P in the symbiosis.

Greg, I'm gonna re-read that one, but IIRC, the method of absorbtion is never established. IE, they could be eating them, they could be absorbing them. Proving that parts of them ended up in the coral doesnt prove whether theyre absorbed, or just consumed, and used as parts.

There was no lag time in incorporation of DFAAs into the tissue compartment in the 'organic matrix' study above. Unless corals are taking up, deaminiting and then aminating the same same -R chain to form the same amino acid in under a minute (forgive me as I'm not a biochemist, but I don't think that is possible given known rates of synthesis) then we must conclude that the coral are taking up the amino acids and using them as-is.

Greg,

It might be interesting to look at the effects of aparctic acid in particular on organic matrix production, tissue growth, etc. as compared to other acid AAs and maybe to asparagine (controls with no DFAA additions, obviously).

Chris

 

[Shawnts106]

Interesting expectation.......We all know a 'crap' reef is due to many factors being off target, and a 'magic' reef being down to many factors, so its unlikely that there are such examples to be found.

True...


Honestly there are way to many variable worth checking on this topic....

Im chilling off AA additions in Reef Aquariums and sticking to what I know.

 

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8630950#post8630950 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
Allemand, D, E Tambutte, J Girard and J Jaubet. 1998. Organic matric synthesis in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata: role of biomineralization and potential target of the organotin tributylin. J Exp Biol 201: 2001â€"œ2009.

--DFAAs are taken up and put into tissue without any lag time. This means that either the internal pool is very small or recycled very quickly. There is a lag of about 20 min before incorporation into the organic matrix (10-30 min lag found in several other studies too, so something is definitely going on there). Also, aspartic acid is a major component of organic matrix.

Exactly what I was looking for ... Many Thanks! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

For anyone interested, the link to the full article (pdf) is:
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/201/13/2001

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8630950#post8630950 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
It might be interesting to look at the effects of aparctic acid in particular on organic matrix production, tissue growth, etc. as compared to other acid AAs and maybe to asparagine (controls with no DFAA additions, obviously).

Apologies to Chris and Greg if I'm jumping in out of turn. I found this one to be interesting, if not entirely relevant to the issue ...


Interactions between zooplankton feeding, photosynthesis and skeletal growth in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata.
Houlbreque F, Tambutte E, Allemand D, Ferrier-Pages C.
J Exp Biol. 2004 Apr; 207(Pt 9):1461-9.

Abstract

We investigated the effect of zooplankton feeding on tissue and skeletal growth of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata. Microcolonies were divided into two groups: starved corals (SC), which were not fed during the experiment, and fed corals (FC), which were abundantly fed with Artemia salina nauplii and freshly collected zooplankton. Changes in tissue growth, photosynthesis and calcification rates were measured after 3 and 8 weeks of incubation. Calcification is the deposition of both an organic matrix and a calcium carbonate layer, so we measured the effect of feeding on both these parameters, using incorporation of (14)C-aspartic acid and (45)Ca, respectively. Aspartic acid is one of the major components of the organic matrix in scleractinian corals. For both sampling times, protein concentrations were twice as high in FC than in SC (0.73 vs 0.42 mg P(-1) cm(-2) skeleton) and chlorophyll c(2) concentrations were 3-4 times higher in fed corals (2.1+/-0.3 micro g cm(-2)). Cell specific density (CSD), which corresponds to the number of algal cells inside a host cell, was also significantly higher in FC (1.416+/-0.028) than in SC (1.316+/-0.015). Fed corals therefore displayed a higher rate of photosynthesis per unit area (P(g)(max)= 570+/-60 nmol O(2) cm(-2) h(-1) and I(k)=403+/-27 micro mol photons m(-2) s(-1)). After 8 weeks, both light and dark calcification rates were twofold greater in FC (3323+/-508 and 416+/-58 nmol Ca(2+) 2 h(-1) g(-1) dry skeletal mass) compared to SC (1560+/-217 and 225+/-35 nmol Ca(2+) 2 h(-1) g(-1) dry skeletal mass, respectively, under light and dark conditions). Aspartic acid incorporation rates were also significantly higher in FC (10.44+/-0.69 and 1.36+/- 0.26%RAV 2 h(-1) g(-1) dry skeletal mass, where RAV is total radioactivity initially present in the external medium) than in SC (6.51+/-0.45 and 0.44+/-0.02%RAV 2 h(-1) g(-1) dry skeletal mass under dark and light conditions, respectively). Rates of dark aspartic acid incorporation were lower than the rates measured in the light. Our results suggest that the increase in the rates of calcification in fed corals might be induced by a feeding-stimulation of organic matrix synthesis.

Source
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=15037640




HTH

 

[fload]

I hate to disrupt the thread here but I was curious about what you guys thought about the use of l-glutamine and l-arginine? Someone recommended I give it a try to help "speed" growth.. I'm not looking for a magic growth rate just wondering if it would help, I plan on dosing 500mg of each (mixed with a homemade food blend) daily...

 

[ikatobiko]

FAA = Snake Oil

 

[F35-Joint Strike Fighter]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8632918#post8632918 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ikatobiko
FAA = Snake Oil

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8631067#post8631067 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106



Honestly there are way to many variable worth checking on this topic....

Im chilling off AA additions in Reef Aquariums and sticking to what I know.

Opps - hope we havent put you off If you find yourself in a nutrient limited situation as indicated by excessive lightening of colors, one cause of lightening /paling to rule out is increase feeding or use of aminos - brand probably not significant unless you are following a 'method' where there is a well trodden path for handeling different senarios.

Cheers

Simon

 

[Greg Hiller]

I'm trying to get an idea of the incorporation rate. This sentence:

>Aspartic acid incorporation rates were also significantly higher in FC (10.44+/-0.69 and 1.36+/- 0.26%RAV 2 h(-1) g(-1) dry skeletal mass<

What is RAV? What I'd like is units of something like grams aspartate (or other FAA) per gram dry skeletal mass per hour.

 

[DrBDC]

Has anyone worked out a formula comparing aspartic acid/skeletal deposition/alk and ca usage? That would enable a regular metered dosage suggestion. i.e. for each dKh used 1 gram of aspartic acid (made up numbers if you are not reading this thread).

 

[Shawnts106]

Opps - hope we havent put you off If you find yourself in a nutrient limited situation as indicated by excessive lightening of colors, one cause of lightening /paling to rule out is increase feeding or use of aminos - brand probably not significant unless you are following a 'method' where there is a well trodden path for handeling different senarios.

No not at all, I am very aware that adding an amino complex to the aquarium when you are having a limited nutrient problem will help indeed..
I was just refering to putting AA into an already established balanced aquarium, which was the purpose of the thread, to see if adding AA to a balanced aquarium would aid in color and growth... now seeing possibly, but it will also fuel algae.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Is there a way to see what is in this little bottle of magic?
I have been adding it to my system and have been getting great results...............I belive that becuase my tank was sooooooooo nutrient poor that by adding this to my tank it has help bring out some great looking colors and full PE. So instead of paying top dollar Iwas thinking maybe it can be made. Here is a link
Michael
http://fragfarmer.com/product.php?productid=52&cat=15&page=1

P.s. I am not trying to sell this product in any way only sharing what has worked for me and yes it is working well.

 

[Lobster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8638060#post8638060 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106
No not at all, I am very aware that adding an amino complex to the aquarium when you are having a limited nutrient problem will help indeed..
I was just refering to putting AA into an already established balanced aquarium, which was the purpose of the thread, to see if adding AA to a balanced aquarium would aid in color and growth... now seeing possibly, but it will also fuel algae.

I don't know why you think amino acids would fuel algae growth. If fertilizers like nitrate are in check, why would there be a problem?

Amino acids are used in RNA translation to build proteins. There are twenty main amino acids. So I would guess that if your problem is a lack of amino acids for protein production, than yeah, adding them would help you. But given the portion of foods that is protein, I doubt it is necessary to supplement them if you feed properly (but someone correct me if Im wrong).

Also I don't understand which amino acids are required and which ones are sold in which bottles/brands. Doesnt seem worth the effort/money yet. Just feed your tank.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8638181#post8638181 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by trueblackpercula
Is there a way to see what is in this little bottle of magic?

Good god, $46 a bottle. If it has KZ on the label, Im afraid you dont have much chance of finding out what exactly is in the bottle, so good luck with that. They arent as forthcoming as Seachem or Salifert when it comes to ingredients.

 

[MCsaxmaster]

Apologies to Chris and Greg if I'm jumping in out of turn. I found this one to be interesting, if not entirely relevant to the issue

Yes. Roughly the same crew along with Ken Sebens (Christine was the primary author) published a similar study in 2003 in Coral Reefs demonstrating higher rates of calcifiction in fed corals. Bongiorni et al. also found significantly faster growth rates and higher reproductive rates in corals located adjact to a fish farm as compared to those located several kilometers from the farm. There have been a number of studies in the past few years that corals grow faster (including skeletal growth) when well-fed.

I hate to disrupt the thread here but I was curious about what you guys thought about the use of l-glutamine and l-arginine? Someone recommended I give it a try to help "speed" growth.. I'm not looking for a magic growth rate just wondering if it would help

Haven't we answered this question several times already in this thread?

What is RAV?

Total radioactivity initially present in the external medium.

Has anyone worked out a formula comparing aspartic acid/skeletal deposition/alk and ca usage? That would enable a regular metered dosage suggestion. i.e. for each dKh used 1 gram of aspartic acid (made up numbers if you are not reading this thread).

Unfortunately, it's a useless number for what you're thinking of. The proportion of skeletal mass that is made up of organic matrix can vary by ca. an order of magnitude and the propotion of organic matrix that is aspartic acid can vary tremendously.

Is there a way to see what is in this little bottle of magic?

Nope, it's physically impossible ...

...of course there are ways, but they are expensive and not remotely worth the hassle IMHO.

On a side note, for the price it had better have little flecks of gold in the bottom. Sheesh!

I don't know why you think amino acids would fuel algae growth. If fertilizers like nitrate are in check, why would there be a problem?

Because, as we've discussed in this thread, while algae are pretty inefficient at using DFAAs for production, they can and do use them.

Chris

 

[Lobster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8639187#post8639187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
Because, as we've discussed in this thread, while algae are pretty inefficient at using DFAAs for production, they can and do use them.

But I thought an absence of nitrate and phosphate would inhibit problematic algae growth despite free amino acids?

 

[MCsaxmaster]

Algae are best able to use ammonium (N) and orthophosphate (P)for growth. They can use other sources of N and P for growth, but less efficiently. Algae in 0.1 uM ammonium with undetectable DFAAs are going to grow faster than algae in water with 0.1 uM DFAA and undetectable ammonium, but the ones in the second group will still grow (rate varies vastly depending on species).