Any serious SPS collectors use LED?

I agree with that and since I like my tanks in the 12-14k range, I am not a slave to Radium's. The XM 20k's over driven by the Lumatek ballasts were too blue for me. I don't know how to say this, but the tank looked too "soft" for my likes. I like a bit more crispness.

I think we are all really saying the same thing though.
 
There are actual studies and results to compare the two using radiated watts gathered from an integrated sphere. This is not a hobby grade piece of equipment.

This always takes some comparative logic and math, but with factors of 2-4x out there, you can make some pretty solid conclusions even with a big error range.

Tested between 400-700nm:
Radion XR15W has 17 radiated watts at full power. If you want to compare a XR30, then lets say 34. Most will argue that this is a best-of-breed light.
250W Ushio 14K on an electronic ballast was at 41 watts. Nobody in their right mind would argue that this is best of breed and is a pretty poor MH choice.

The PPFD of the Ushio setup is 63-67, so lets say 65. If you run the ratio, just based radiated watts, a XR30 would have 54 PPFD.

XR30 = 54 PPFD
Ushio = 65 PPFD

Now, what if you look at a best-of-breed MH, which might be smart since we are using a best-of-breed LED. What does a XR30 look like with all channels at 100%? 10K? We better look at 10K MH bulbs too with the extra red, green and yellow in them.

250W Radium on M80 = 85 PPFD
10K Ushio on M80 = 159 PPFD
10K Hamilton on M80 = 149 PPFD
10K XM on M80 = 182 PPFD
10K XM on M57 = 137 PPFD
14K Phoenix on M80 = 108 PPFD

You are looking at at least two XR30s to equal the same output as a best-of-breed MH. Who knows how many panels with less efficient diodes that it would take.

Again, I will ask the question. Anybody go to MACNA and listen to Joshi speak?

FWIW - Kessil A350W came in at 13 radiated watts, so for those people who always knew or thought that Kessils looked weak, then you were right.

Also, FWIW - anybody using 250W 20K Radium not on M80 ballasts was not seeing the true color that most people love. Same with 14K phoenix - need to be on M80.
 
I agree with that and since I like my tanks in the 12-14k range, I am not a slave to Radium's. The XM 20k's over driven by the Lumatek ballasts were too blue for me. I don't know how to say this, but the tank looked too "soft" for my likes. I like a bit more crispness.

I think we are all really saying the same thing though.

Kind of sounds that way. Must have been my Cajun accent that gave us communication issues.
 
As long as new generations of LED's are evolving, a comparison will need to be made. Further, comparisons will need to be made when users get to a point where they can state that they have not changed settings for a protracted period of time. We just don't have enough longer term experience under stable, base-line conditions to make an accurate statement.

From experience, I can say what I have encountered. I started my identical 220 gallon tanks off with 5 AI Sol Blu units over each. I had moderate growth on most pieces and slower on others. My colors though were great. I swapped out two of the units for 250 watt DE MH using xm 20k bulbs in Lumen Max 3 pendants on Lumatek adjustable ballasts. The ballast setting was on the "boosted" 250 watt setting. I swapped out the units because I was afraid, from what I had been reading here, that I was not providing the complete spectrum and that was what was impeding the growth. Plus, with only white and blue/royal blue, it kind of made sense. That was one of the worse things I have done.

My Pocillopora and Birdnest pieces actually lost quite a bit of their color intensity, but exploded in growth. I am not a big frag person and I believed the color would return after a period of light adjustment. I was wrong and should have aggressively fragged. The stuff took over my tank. Both species had little babies all over the tank, on my overflow, glass and powerheads. They then died off at the bases due to lack of light/flow. This led to an algae bloom and getting HA out of Seriatopora is a losing battle. The Sol Blu units were at 55% across the board.

Visually, the tanks looked no different. It was amazing as I could stand in our kitchen and look at both tanks when one had been converted to the LED/MH combination and one had not. My wife could not tell them apart. One way to tell though was to look at the tank temps, one was 4-5 degrees warmer than the other. The living room became hotter as well which was made quite noticeable when the second tank was converted.

I ended up basically restarting the tanks a few months ago, taking out the MH to go back to all LED's and converting three out of the five units over each tank to Hydras. One tank has LPS and softies and is doing great. The other tank is SPS only and, at this point, I have no issues. I put quite a few pieces from Copps in the tank at the end of October and quite a few more mid-November from others. A couple frags from Copps have grown 1/4-1/2" nubs where they had been broken during shipping. Certain frags in the mid-November batch have shown surprising growth in less than 1 month, encrusting their plugs mainly, but in one case where the frag was laying on the rock, encrusting the rock to make a disk about the size of a quarter.

Time will tell, but as of right now, given my priorities, these units are serving me well. I have less heat. My corals are coloring up and growing. We'll see how my batch from Battle Corals/Adam does when I receive them after Christmas.

I had much the same results doing the same thing with the same lights. Though I had no real bad results making the switch there was no overall advantage in swapping out AIs for MHs. Im back to a full LED set up. I have had better results removing 3 of the six AIs. The lower light level has brought out more color.
 
My DT is a SPS dominated 120g w/standard 4x2x2 dimensions. I run 2 AI Sol blues at 45w/65b/65rb 12hours on 12 off with the fixtures 12" above the water. Granted it's only been going since August 2013 with the majority of coral's added as frags that September, but I feel that both growth and color is very good.


As a previous poster noted, I think the biggest issue people have with LED lighting is the adjustability. Acclimate your tank to the new lighting, then LEAVE IT ALONE long enough to actually see some results!

JM .02

THIS

100% correct.
 
There are actual studies and results to compare the two using radiated watts gathered from an integrated sphere. This is not a hobby grade piece of equipment.

This always takes some comparative logic and math, but with factors of 2-4x out there, you can make some pretty solid conclusions even with a big error range.

Tested between 400-700nm:
Radion XR15W has 17 radiated watts at full power. If you want to compare a XR30, then lets say 34. Most will argue that this is a best-of-breed light.
250W Ushio 14K on an electronic ballast was at 41 watts. Nobody in their right mind would argue that this is best of breed and is a pretty poor MH choice.

The PPFD of the Ushio setup is 63-67, so lets say 65. If you run the ratio, just based radiated watts, a XR30 would have 54 PPFD.

XR30 = 54 PPFD
Ushio = 65 PPFD

Now, what if you look at a best-of-breed MH, which might be smart since we are using a best-of-breed LED. What does a XR30 look like with all channels at 100%? 10K? We better look at 10K MH bulbs too with the extra red, green and yellow in them.

250W Radium on M80 = 85 PPFD
10K Ushio on M80 = 159 PPFD
10K Hamilton on M80 = 149 PPFD
10K XM on M80 = 182 PPFD
10K XM on M57 = 137 PPFD
14K Phoenix on M80 = 108 PPFD

You are looking at at least two XR30s to equal the same output as a best-of-breed MH. Who knows how many panels with less efficient diodes that it would take.

Again, I will ask the question. Anybody go to MACNA and listen to Joshi speak?

FWIW - Kessil A350W came in at 13 radiated watts, so for those people who always knew or thought that Kessils looked weak, then you were right.

Also, FWIW - anybody using 250W 20K Radium not on M80 ballasts was not seeing the true color that most people love. Same with 14K phoenix - need to be on M80.

Jda...you better not show those numbers because you'll get blasted if you actually show data and not just hear say. People like to believe what the want and science and data will not make them happy. They still don't believe a big 20*20 lumenbright covers a larger area than a Radion and has better coverage with essentially zero shading.

No man don't tell them about Joshi either they don't wanna hear it.
 
As a previous poster noted, I think the biggest issue people have with LED lighting is the adjustability. Acclimate your tank to the new lighting, then LEAVE IT ALONE long enough to actually see some results!

JM .02

That and do not get creative with the settings. I think to many people are trying to be cute with adding and dropping out different colors at various times during the day. Constant change does not help.

I have been running the same basic profile for 7 months and it is just a ramp up, plateau, ramp down.

So far I have not noticed the shading being any worse than when I ran MH. I do run my LEDs longer and hotter than anybody I have seen posting. Not sure if that matters.
 
My point was the MH have a performance range and LEDs have a performance range and those overlap to some extent. On the LED side there are lots of caveats.

Disclaimer, this is based on my own observations and experience with both LED and MH.

That I would agree with completely. There are also a lot of caveats with MH, but they are far better understood than with LEDs, at least at this point.
 
So we're now on page 6 and I have yet to see anyone really show the self to have great colors and a great collection of SPS. Particularly acropora... "Great" and "serious" are subjective, but I still have yet to see an LED lit SPS tank that measures up to the best MH and T5 tanks. You can certainly have a great LED lit tank as a whole, but could it be a little more visually pleasing to me if it were lit with MH and/or T5's? From what I've seen, yes, and again that's subjective...
 
Peter - I believe people are getting sick and tired of having to prove it again and again. There are several examples in other threads. I have come to realize there are quite a few people who have had success, but there are also quite a few detractors that are avid with their negativity. Ironically, I believe the August TOTM was lit by LED's and looks great, full of nice SPS.

There is a very good link posted earlier in this thread. I think this is the one (it was posted quite a few pages ago):
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2290355
 
If you actually read that whole thread you will find that TBD 320 the thread starter went back to MH.

LED success is not as prevelant as MH and T5.

I'm not saying LEDS will not replace them in the future but we are not yet there. Look at the last 20 or so TOTM and tell us how many of them run LEDS.

Adam from Battle Corals, who has some of the nicest SPS available went back to MH.

Jason Fox runs MH and T5. He may run some tanks on LED I'm not sure.

If you want to know about success. Call or email these guys and ask them what they use and trust to grow their business.

These guys are in it for big wads of cash and not a p!$$ing contest with all of us on the Internet.

My advice is if anyone is on the fence go look at some tanks and see what excites you. Contact the growers and ask them what they use and trust and not just experiments.
 
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Judgeing success in a reef tank is kind of like evaluating art. It really is subjective and the preference of the view is the biggest variable.

Yes you can grow nice high end corals with LEDs if you take the time to learn the lights to operate then adequately and within their limitations. People are being successful and as they share their knowledge more people will be successful with LED lighting. It happened when T-5's came on the market and when higher K mh lamps came on the market.

Detractors and fanboys do not help in the spread of good information.
 
I agree it's about perspective.

I have friends come up that don't reef and see a few acans and zoas and my on huge frogspawn and see the movement and color and love it.

Then ask what all the dead looking ones are that dont move.

Totally about perspective.
 
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I agree it's about perspective.

I have friends come up that don't reef and see a few acans and zoas and my on huge frogspawn and see the movement and color and love it.

Then ask what all the dead looking ones are that dont move.

Totally about perspective.

:thumbsup:

I remember when I started years ago I though euphyllias were all the rage and the coolest things I had ever seen... SPS were boring. My how that opinion has changed.
 
I agree it's about perspective.

I have friends come up that don't reef and see a few acans and zoas and my on huge frogspawn and see the movement and color and love it.

Then ask what all the dead looking ones are that dont move.

Totally about perspective.

My wife calls them the sticks. She likes the euphillias and other things that move.
 
Ditto here. That's one reason I have two tanks. My wife likes the Softie/LPS tank much more than the SPS tank. She also calls it a pile of sticks. She would rather I have a fish only tank.
 
Lights

Lights

I have had all three types: Halides, T5s, and now Leds... I still think halides are the best for SPS.. However, I love my leds now since I can make the light change every hour like the sun based on intensity. You can't do that with halides. I also like T5s but was bored with them...

I would have never tried Leds 5 years ago but they have come a long way. I bet 10 years from now more and more people will have them.

It is all preference... I think even the people growing coral for a living if they could dial in a led fixture, they would all switch to Leds but the technology I don't think is quite there yet...
 
The issue mention here are of LED fixture Gen 1 in most cases, The current top shelf LEDs are full spectrum and single light source to eliminate shadows from multiple light source LEDs. The problem with discussion of LEDs is it has progressed there are more advances coming point of reference is a big deal in this discussion. Vivid is using LED on the their tank. I am using it I know what I have.


Vivid is using radions on half of their big display and as I posted earlier, they have at least 8 on there that I can remember. Maybe more. Not your typical usage of leds...
 
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