Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[ReefCowboy]

Its funny after so long the Radion Pros have been out, with the Majority of sps enthusiasts failing at keeping growth and colors under those fixtures, somehow "magic" happened at Reef Whesalers and LED's trumped MH and T5's... I wonder why we dont see this miracle happening more often? Is that research article being fair with most corals in those systems looking better under LED's or did they pick some to plead their case...

Important to mention unbiased studies such as BRS point other LEDs over Radions, and I have yet to see one favoring those lights over T5's and MH. Good try Ecotech, but your research is yet to be believed.

 

[shred5]

Maybe because the Radion has a Max. Wattage of 170W - and they were not at maximum strength?

You really need to read the thread there is a reason it is 226 pages long. There are a few people who wandered in here and got blind sided.

Turning up the fixture will only increase the par. Par really is not a issue with any good quality fixture and lamp for Halides, LED or t-5 and obviously led dont use lamps. Spectrum is where they differ the most and led is a little short on spectrum.

Actually Aqualund hit it on the head in his previous post.

But like any led fixture, they do not have a continuous range of wavelengths like a MH or T5, especially below 455nm. yes Im quite sure they have violet leds that go to 420nm maybe? But they don't have anything below that, and anything below 455nm from an led is a specific wavelength. (because there are no phosphors being used to make the color at this range)

The debate comes into play with coloring and growing Acroporas, and those that have attempted grwoth of these corals with Both MH and LED like to look at these wavelength gaps as glaring examples of the shortcomings of LEDs. Myself included.

Is it peer reviewed and proven? No.

But it is for these reasons that you cannot compare even full spectrum LEDs 1:1 with MH or T5.

With any lighting technology there is give and take. With leds you get lower energy, cooler, dimming ability etc. but a little less spectrum.

That does not mean they dont work well, they certainly can keep coral and even make them grow. You do loose a little color in some sps, mainly ones from shallower water that are exposed to higher levels of UV. That also does not mean they loose total color or do not have great color in some sps. There is give and take with all lighting technology. There are some very nice sps led lit tanks.

Personally I do not use halides not because they do not produce the best coloration but the power. I would be popping breakers, I also do not use led even though I have in the past. I use t-5, it is kind of in the middle with a little better spectrum and still somewhat energy savings. I also have used allot of halides in the past though and is my favorite.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Comforably,

But like any led fixture, they (Kessil) do not have a continuous range of wavelengths like a MH or T5, especially below 455nm. yes Im quite sure they have violet leds that go to 420nm maybe? But they don't have anything below that, and anything below 455nm from an led is a specific wavelength. (because there are no phosphors being used to make the color at this range)

Hi again Aqualand

Are you sure about that? I see conflicting testimony to yours, specifically:

"Kessil has huge peaks in the 400 range and something that really nobody else has, a peak in the UVA (mid-high 300s). The PUR of the kessils is ridiculous which is why they have such great outcomes with a relatively low par compared to some of the other LED manufacturers."

That post was backed up by slief, a sponser of the site: (near the bottom of the page)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2573290

Its hard to know who to believe.

 

[Salty150]

Hi again Aqualand

Are you sure about that? I see conflicting testimony to yours, specifically:

"Kessil has huge peaks in the 400 range and something that really nobody else has, a peak in the UVA (mid-high 300s). The PUR of the kessils is ridiculous which is why they have such great outcomes with a relatively low par compared to some of the other LED manufacturers."

That post was backed up by slief, a sponser of the site: (near the bottom of the page)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2573290

Its hard to know who to believe.

Is the Kessil AP700 the closest LED to a MH and T5 combo?

 

[shred5]

Hi again Aqualand

Are you sure about that? I see conflicting testimony to yours, specifically:

"Kessil has huge peaks in the 400 range and something that really nobody else has, a peak in the UVA (mid-high 300s). The PUR of the kessils is ridiculous which is why they have such great outcomes with a relatively low par compared to some of the other LED manufacturers."

That post was backed up by slief, a sponser of the site: (near the bottom of the page)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2573290

Its hard to know who to believe.

UV is not known too affect growth at least not that i am aware of and if it did it would probably would negatively.. Corals do not like it just like they do not like red spectrum. They produce proteins and pigment to either block or change it.

There is not a LED used in a aquarium light fixture yet that could cause sunburn or browning of the skin. There are leds out there that do but they cost more than a fixture would.


I started to run a experiment with two exact tanks tied to the same sump. One tank lit by t-5 and one by full spectrum led. I did not see much difference in growth but coloration was different. It didn't last long since they were frag tanks and I did not need to loose colors. after about 3 months I had enough, there are better fixtures now than the one I used though.

Other than on frag tanks I do not see why growth is so important, most sps grow fast as it is.

 

[Wazzel]

Depends. If you aren't going to have an SPS Acro focused tank I think many here might agree LED will work fine.

If you are then you will want to at least double the fixture count to avoid shadowing of the acros, possible more depending on tank dimensions. Think of a stage with an actor and how they would appear with just one or two spotlights overhead.

I'm far far from an expert, just another newb that started with LED and then moved to T5 due to shadowing and growth issues with my acros.

LEDs work fine on acro focused tanks also. They are just different. A LED tank is not going to look just like a MH lit tank. To expect them to look exactly alike is an unrealistic expectation.

You will need more fixtures than the manufactures recommend. From what I have seen it will be 1.5 to 2 times the specs, depending.

Growth has never been a problem for me. Shadowing was an issue until I added the second fixture. Color is still fine tuning at this time. I spent to much time trying to get max power out of the two units I over lit my corals a lot. Things have gotten darker since I came off full power.

 

[Bent]

I find it mindblowing that this thread is four years old. Seems like it was created yesterday.

 

[fishinthewall]

I find it mindblowing that this thread is four years old. Seems like it was created yesterday.

Agreed. It makes it really hard to decide on lighting, I refuse to run a chiller. I'm also not crazy about the energy cost. I'm more curios about the comparison of hybrids.

T5 mh vs t5 led.

I also feel this is a better conversation to be having as mht5 was dominant for so long for good reason. Is coloration and growth comparable enough on t5 led to justify not having the chiller and high energy bills?

 

[DavidinGA]

Led plus T5 is the best compromise setup available imo

(every light source option has its pro's/con's)

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[shred5]

Led plus T5 is the best compromise setup available imo

(every light source option has its pro's/con's)

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

You probably are right.

 

[Johnseye]

Led plus T5 is the best compromise setup available imo

(every light source option has its pro's/con's)

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Compromise?

 

[Aqualund]

Hi again Aqualand

Are you sure about that? I see conflicting testimony to yours, specifically:

"Kessil has huge peaks in the 400 range and something that really nobody else has, a peak in the UVA (mid-high 300s). The PUR of the kessils is ridiculous which is why they have such great outcomes with a relatively low par compared to some of the other LED manufacturers."

That post was backed up by slief, a sponser of the site: (near the bottom of the page)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2573290

Its hard to know who to believe.

I can almost certainly guarantee that this is false. But I have been wrong before. To date, I know of no one that has cost effective and reliable leds that are blow 400nm to be used in a Kessil Matrix.

I saw your post interesting so I did a little research which I am sure you can do...yes there are peaks in the mid to lower 400's like I said before, but I havent seen a single plot showing a Kessil with a spectral plot below 400 anywhere.

All the plots I did find where also nicely fudged. Like for example, I trust Advanced Aquarist Immensely, and their review article of the newest Kessils have spectral plots corroborating my position.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/kessil-introduces-a350-a350w-led-pendant-lights


Dont get me wrong...I think it's techincally possible...but expense would keep a company like Kessil from doing it (right now). In my research when trying to design my own chip, a reliable sub 400nm led emitter started around $75 a piece. so yeah...Im quite sure that guy in that thread was straight up fibbing.

 

[DavidinGA]

Compromise?

Absolutely.

If your setting up a hardcore sps tank and I say "led plus T5 is the best" it would only be the best in the sense that it's really a compromise as its been proven that Mh can grow sps faster (if nothing else).

Every option is a compromise in one way or another.

If you say mh is the best, I might agree but add that it's only the best if your willing to deal with the excess heat and electricity costs.... Pro's/con's to everything.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Wazzel]

Absolutely.

If your setting up a hardcore sps tank and I say "led plus T5 is the best" it would only be the best in the sense that it's really a compromise as its been proven that Mh can grow sps faster (if nothing else).

Every option is a compromise in one way or another.

If you say mh is the best, I might agree but add that it's only the best if your willing to deal with the excess heat and electricity costs.... Pro's/con's to everything.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Agree, all light systems have their place. It really is hard to say what is best since different people will have different sets of criteria they are trying to work with.

 

[DavidinGA]

Agree, all light systems have their place. It really is hard to say what is best since different people will have different sets of criteria they are trying to work with.

Right.

For my setup, I have found the best compromise light for what I am trying to accomplish is led plus T5's.


Pro's

I get the energy savings and customization from leds.

Better spectrum, spread, growth and a nice par bump from T5's.


Con's

Slower growth from leds (acro's).

Bulb replacement costs for T5's.



I still muse switching out my leds and tossing up some mh, but the extra energy costs and bulb costs have kept me in led land for the time being...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Wazzel]

Right.

For my setup, I have found the best compromise light for what I am trying to accomplish is led plus T5's.


Pro's

I get the energy savings and customization from leds.

Better spectrum, spread, growth and a nice par bump from T5's.


Con's

Slower growth from leds (acro's).

Bulb replacement costs for T5's.



I still muse switching out my leds and tossing up some mh, but the extra energy costs and bulb costs have kept me in led land for the time being...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

LED ticked just about all the boxes for me. Holding color has been an issues. With one unit I had it dialed in, when I added the second I over shot (I think) the sweet spot. If thing grew any faster I would be throwing stuff out by the handful.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

All the plots I did find where also nicely fudged. Like for example, I trust Advanced Aquarist Immensely, and their review article of the newest Kessils have spectral plots corroborating my position.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/kessil-introduces-a350-a350w-led-pendant-lights

Yes, its an interesting topic, isn't it? I would have to point out though that the article you quoted was for the old/outdated a350 from a few years ago that has long since been replaced. The newer a360's have a completely different matrix and are 30% brighter than the light reviewed in the article.

 

[Johnseye]

Absolutely.

If your setting up a hardcore sps tank and I say "led plus T5 is the best" it would only be the best in the sense that it's really a compromise as its been proven that Mh can grow sps faster (if nothing else).

Every option is a compromise in one way or another.

If you say mh is the best, I might agree but add that it's only the best if your willing to deal with the excess heat and electricity costs.... Pro's/con's to everything.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

I see where you are coming from. It will always be a compromise.

 

[fishinthewall]

Has any one who has had both seen a difference in growth patterns? I understand growth is more flow related, but given the same params would led and mh have the same health/thickness/length of sps frames?

 

[Aqualund]

Yes, its an interesting topic, isn't it? I would have to point out though that the article you quoted was for the old/outdated a350 from a few years ago that has long since been replaced. The newer a360's have a completely different matrix and are 30% brighter than the light reviewed in the article.

Yup definitely quickly glance at the article and thought I saw a360. However, in looking up the a360 spectral plot from The kessil website, nothing much is different in the areas of contention we are discussing. Still nothing below 390-400nm, and everything between 400nm and 455nm is not continuous.

The fixture might have changed, but the LED technology between the two has not changed from an individual emitter standpoint (in relation to spectral variety).