Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[ghostman]

Thanks powerboatjim. That makes sense. Heat can be an issue, and is one of the areas that LEDs may have an advantage. With my tank in the basement, heat is not an issue and is actually appreciated. Your negative is my positive. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[ghostman]

your question has been answered but you won't accept that answer because it doesn't fit your bias. Nothing we can do about that.

An led's true plot isn't within 5% of a halide's. Not even close. Again, i doubt you've seen a true plot.

But in the end, if you're happy with your tank then that's great! That's what this hobby is about.

+10000000000000.

 

[d2mini]

d2 - I am not sure what LED units you were running and what you actually compared it to, but here is my experience with just one configuration.

I had five AI Sol Blu units over each of my two 220 gallon tanks. The tanks are on either side of my fireplace in identical built in cabinets. I decided to swap out the number 2 and number 4 AI units for 250 watt MH, running XM 20k bulbs on "boosted" electronic ballasts. Those ballasts were selectable for 250, 250+ and 400 watt. I ran pendants, not retros. I finished one tank and turned them on. It was almost impossible to tell the one tank from the other visually. The tank with Sol/MH/Sol/MH/Sol looked identical to the all Sol Blu tank at 55% settings on all channels.

I recently converted the three Sol Blu units over each tank to Hydra 52's and replaced the MH units with the old Sol Blu units. At 50% white, 75% blue, 15% green/red on the Hydras and 55% on the Sol Blu (all colors), it was dramatically brighter than the other tank before it's update, not a question at all.

So, my experience with two tanks virtually next to each other and the ability to stand back 20'-30' from the tank was virtually the opposite. The LED tank was far brighter even at reduced settings given the MH setup it was compared against.

Now, I like a tank to appear more white than blue also, so I do not try to run my LED's to look like a radium and I do not get that disco effect people talk about.

Time will tell. One tank is LPS Sofitie and one is filled with SPS frags with more coming from Adam at Battle Corals after the Holidays.

I will not put the MH back on my tanks. I do not like to deal with the heat. If I am unhappy with the color, I might supplement with some T5's.

Very interesting.

The first tank was my 36" cube which had one of those fancy german mh/t5 combos over it. Aqua Photon something or other? Can't remember exactly. Anyway, it was just a single 250w DE MH with four 24" T5's.
I replaced that light with 3 first gen Radions.

My current 84" long tank had 4 Radion Pros over it and those were replaced with three 250w Radium Bulbs and four 60" T5's.

For me, in both cases the mh/t5 setup appeared much brighter.

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

Your question has been answered but you won't accept that answer because it doesn't fit your bias. Nothing we can do about that.

An LED's true plot isn't within 5% of a halide's. Not even close. Again, I doubt you've seen a true plot.

But in the end, if you're happy with your tank then that's great! That's what this hobby is about.

You can't make a general statement like all leds are the same, they're not.
That's not an answer to my question. That's the answer YOU think it should be, but again not all leds are the same, period.

So, anyone else care to snuff my "ignorance" out on my question?

 

[mandarin417]

I was excited to learn that Dana Riddle is working with Nick at Build My Led to do a study on the impact of coral growth using different combinations of LED lights. I understand the study will be completed by end of Q1 2015. The theory is that the less attractive color rendition probably supports the best growth like what folks experienced with a 6500K MH lamp. The idea that one could dial in the "ugliness" during the day with their LEDs and bring up the more appealing lamp colors when folks are at home viewing the tank is breakthrough thinking. That makes the LEDs a valuable alternative to other lighting schemes.

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

I was excited to learn that Dana Riddle is working with Nick at Build My Led to do a study on the impact of coral growth using different combinations of LED lights. I understand the study will be completed by end of Q1 2015. The theory is that the less attractive color rendition probably supports the best growth like what folks experienced with a 6500K MH lamp. The idea that one could dial in the "ugliness" during the day with their LEDs and bring up the more appealing lamp colors when folks are at home viewing the tank is breakthrough thinking. That makes the LEDs a valuable alternative to other lighting schemes.

This is one huge advantage leds have over any other fixture right now and what I was referring to as color-shifts.

 

[power boat jim]

Drwhoreefer I am not going to quote you but here is a response that hopefully you can understand from this back woods redneck reefer who still trust metal halide but has spent $1K + on LEDs up to this point. Comparison on two tanks: my friends 65 gallon who currently has two Vegas, one that has lost half of its leds in less than two years and my 65 that has one 250w MH pendant. His tank looks very nice, grows coral, but up to this point he has $1,100 invested in his LEDs, I have $80 for Pendant and ballast with $60 for a new lamp and it grows corals very well also. I have to replace my lamp soon and I will spend another $60. Since his fixture is out of the one year warranty he has to spend $200 for the upgrade on the bad fixture, but since it won't match now he will be upgrading both for $400. So he has $1,500 invested to light up his 65 gallon which grows corals and looks great and saving energy but I hope you can agree a great cost to his wallet?
Fact or Theory
Last year on my 300 I had one lamp that was 24 months old and one that was brand new, to the eye no one could pick out which lamp was which with no change in color or intensity. With a PAR and foot candle meter I could tell there was about a 9% output difference, two months later the now 26 month lamp dropped rapidly to 15% so it was changed. That is a fact!
LEDs last 50,000 hours, that is a theory based on 10 years operation with a 30% drop in those ten years. I want to see a study by Ecotech that shows Gen 1 on a test tank with corals and gives the PAR values from year one to year five showing how much it dropped in output and by raising the light levels they were able to maintain the same PAR levels over those years. The same with Gen 2, Gen3, and from AI Sol's and Reef Breeders. That way when someone talks about LEDs we can have the facts. And then if it is not too much a five to ten year warranty on their light fixture that they claim will last ten years, because for ten years and $1,500 I can buy a bunch of lamps and electricity.

I actually did a PAR reading on my AIs when they were new and then when they were three years old. Granted it was using two different par meters but the numbers showed that there is less then the reported 3 percent drop per year. The way it looks, I think it is far more likely the leds will just go out due to a bad circuit board or whatever . Fade over time didnt look to be a concern after three years of use.

 

[d2mini]

This is one huge advantage leds have over any other fixture right now and what I was referring to as color-shifts.

Your "huge advantage" did diddly squat for me.

And it can still be accomplished with any mh/t5 combo fixture like the one I own.
Two banks of two T5's, plus the MH's. Run a lower kelvin MH during peak hours and then you have an array of T5's to choose from to give you a couple steps of higher kelvins.

The only thing you lose out on is that slow, almost invisible ramping up and down which makes zero difference in real world use.

 

[SPotter]

This thread was extremely helpful with my recent decision to go back to mh. I got back in the hobby 4.5 yrs ago with MH, switched to T5 and added some led for more pop, then switched to a Pac Sun LED/T5 fixture where I struggled for 12 months to dial it in, went back to T5 before eventually breaking that tank down and moving. Now that the new tank is up and running with 3x250w 20k's and 8 x 54w t5's on my 96x36x24 I can honestly say that based on the fixtures I have experienced I prefer MH. I have growth and color like I never had before. Now I just stopped off at a friends house this morning to drop some salt off and he uses PhotonBreeder LED's and I have to say his tank looked amazing too! Great colors, you could see growth on his sps, lps were thriving and just had an overall healthy tank that has been running for a couple of years now. There are so many variables in this hobby that there is no concrete science that will prove either side of this argument. I believe I was my own worst enemy when it came to the leds and having the ability to dim and change spectrum. I believe that I was creating spectrums that were harmful to the animals in my tank causing them to stress and ultimately die. I know a lot of people that had the AI SOL's when they first came out and all you had was white and blue leds. The growth of sps in the tanks was amazing but it needed more color. I truly believe that the issues come from the software and the capabilities it gives the end user. ON and OFF is good enough for me now.

Just my uneducated .02

 

[ghostman]

This is one huge advantage leds have over any other fixture right now and what I was referring to as color-shifts.

This "huge advantage" is nothing more than a novelty, much like lightning storms and cloud cover. Do you have any proof that color shifting improves coral coloration or growth? I didn't think so....

 

[biecacka]

i might be wrong, but didn't Sanjay do a test on the difference in spectrum between MH and LED? i mean we view him as a very credible source with plenty of knowledge. would be nice if he would chime in on this and share his findings
thing is for most i think is led is still new and while there are some amazing tanks out there with leds on them, none have been running leds for 5+years and there are plenty of tanks with MH for 5+ years. like many have stated before including me, i have no doubt that led will be the future, but it is still very early in the stages of proper usage for "our system needs". while there are great strides being made, they just need to make a few more for the tried and true die hard MH users to switch. not too mention the upfront cost for larger tanks. some people are having success with leds and others are not, Dennis who has one of the nicest natural looking tank did not care for his, i did not care for them on my old tank either. these are just a few examples and not a blanket statement but we are speaking from experience. then powerboatjim is having luck with his, to be honest i don't know why the difference and i am not sure any one can answer that. too me, that is a question i would want answered before i spent the money on LEDs. i cannot recall anyone saying they had horrible luck with MH bulbs. most switch for other reasons.


corey

 

[jda]

Anybody see Sanjay at MACNA? Hardly a ringing endorsement for LED. He said that there was no efficiency and that he needed 3 panels to replace a single 400W MH and the growth still was not as good. He would not even touch of color, except for privately. The only efficiency that he saw was if you could avoid running a chiller a lot. I think that he had Radion Pros, but I don't remember that well.

His speech was one of the reasons that many of the locals (since MACNA was local) have started to move to MH at a big pace.

BTW - I can grow coral with LED, and did. It just was not as good - nowhere near as good.

BTW2 - I love it how slight spectrum shift in a MH bulb over 2 years is a huge negative, but changing the spectrum all the time with a LED is a huge benefit.

 

[jda]

LED is not new. LED is not getting better. It is what it is - a piecemeal of spectrum pointing one way. The piecemeal could be different, I guess. It is going to be like this for a long time until somebody comes up with a wide spectrum diode or at least something with 360 degree output that can be spread. It seems to me that something that would screw into a Lumenarc, Hammy or Sunlight reflector where the mogul went would be pretty smart.

 

[d2mini]

BTW - I can grow coral with LED, and did. It just was not as good - nowhere near as good.

Same here.
And I agree with Sanjay... I would say it takes about double the LED fixtures vs what the manufacturer's recommend.

BTW2 - I love it how slight spectrum shift in a MH bulb over 2 years is a huge negative, but changing the spectrum all the time with a LED is a huge benefit.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[JPMagyar]

Ok then, still nobody answers my question.

If you have two light sources that have identical spectrum, mh and led, other than intensity, how are they different?

Again, you did NOT read my post.


1) LEDs can NOT have the same "spectrum" as light produced from metal halide; it is a physical impossibility.

spectrum |ˈspektrəm|
noun (pl. spectra |-trə| or spectrums)
1 a band of colors, as seen in a rainbow, produced by separation of the components of light by their different degrees of refraction according to wavelength.

LEDs produce light using P/N junctions. P/N junctions are the same technology used in making microchips and create mini-transistors that science has been making smaller and smaller by the year. The material used to make these junctions determines the wavelength of light produced by an LED. Let me say that another way. The wavelength of light produced by an LED is determined by the material used in making the LED. Scientists have found several suitable materials which can create several different LED "colors" and they found that mixing these LEDs can fool the human eye into "seeing" even more colors. What LEDs do NOT do is produce a broad spectrum of light as is created by a metal halide bulb or a fluorescent bulb. LED light is different; it can NOT have a broad spectrum. Period, dot, end of story.

There are numerous studies that have examined how symbiodinium grow under artificial light created by metal halide and even in depth research into the absorption curve and reflectivity of broad spectrum light. In that research scientists found that symbiodinium response seemed to differ with different wavelengths, but no research I have seen has shown whether light from sources that have very narrow wavelengths alters the response of symbiodinium as compared to broad spectrum light. There are more scientific reasons why LED light is different but I'm not going to waste time typing what I already typed above. Prove to me that you are listening at all and go find my previous posts on LED light and then show me the scientific papers that have studied these issues with regard to symbiodinium, and while you're at it why not go find the papers that DO exist on symbiodinium and artificial light.



If you like LEDs that is awesome. This is a hobby and you should use the light you enjoy most. This thread is a place where some very experienced reefers, myself included, are sharing their experience with LEDs and saying that something is different about how SPS grow under LEDs especially given the fact that LEDs are so varied in their application. If you disagree with that FACT then I'm afraid we simply have to agree to disagree.

How 'bout some pictures of your reef while we're at it. Or perhaps some macros of the awesome colors you are getting.

Here are some of mine. . .

 

[Wazzel]

Your "huge advantage" did diddly squat for me.

And it can still be accomplished with any mh/t5 combo fixture like the one I own.
Two banks of two T5's, plus the MH's. Run a lower kelvin MH during peak hours and then you have an array of T5's to choose from to give you a couple steps of higher kelvins.

The only thing you lose out on is that slow, almost invisible ramping up and down which makes zero difference in real world use.

I do not see the huge advantage either. People have had nice tanks with single color temp Mh and on/off operation for a long time, myself included.

I like the long slow ramp, but only because I get more hours to view my tank like that. I really don't think it matters one bit to the corals if the get 8 hours of Mh, 10 hours of T-5 or 14 hours of ramped LED.

 

[d2mini]

Nice reef porn, JP!


I have all my coral in a 4'x4' temporary holding tub lit by just TWO MH bulbs in MINI (13") reflectors, plus four blue T5 bulbs. Diagonal across the 4' tub.

I've gotten some great color and even some good growth over the past couple months.
Even through some mishaps like Alk and Salinity swings!
Try that with two LED fixtures.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23332542#post23332542

 

[Wazzel]

LED is not new. LED is not getting better. It is what it is - a piecemeal of spectrum pointing one way. The piecemeal could be different, I guess. It is going to be like this for a long time until somebody comes up with a wide spectrum diode or at least something with 360 degree output that can be spread. It seems to me that something that would screw into a Lumenarc, Hammy or Sunlight reflector where the mogul went would be pretty smart.

IIRC white LEDs are full spectrum, like most white light. The Cree cool white in the AI hydra look like crap all on their own.

The real magic in Mh is the reflector. Without that it is just a point source light bulb. LED needs to mimic that spread. I think without a reflector would be better. It does mean the fixtures should probably look more like T-5 fixtures than the AI and echotec fixtures.

 

[MisterP]

Again, you did NOT read my post.


1) LEDs can NOT have the same "spectrum" as light produced from metal halide; it is a physical impossibility.




LEDs produce light using P/N junctions. P/N junctions are the same technology used in making microchips and create mini-transistors that science has been making smaller and smaller by the year. The material used to make these junctions determines the wavelength of light produced by an LED. Let me say that another way. The wavelength of light produced by an LED is determined by the material used in making the LED. Scientists have found several suitable materials which can create several different LED "colors" and they found that mixing these LEDs can fool the human eye into "seeing" even more colors. What LEDs do NOT do is produce a broad spectrum of light as is created by a metal halide bulb or a fluorescent bulb. LED light is different; it can NOT have a broad spectrum. Period, dot, end of story.

There are numerous studies that have examined how symbiodinium grow under artificial light created by metal halide and even in depth research into the absorption curve and reflectivity of broad spectrum light. In that research scientists found that symbiodinium response seemed to differ with different wavelengths, but no research I have seen has shown whether light from sources that have very narrow wavelengths alters the response of symbiodinium as compared to broad spectrum light. There are more scientific reasons why LED light is different but I'm not going to waste time typing what I already typed above. Prove to me that you are listening at all and go find my previous posts on LED light and then show me the scientific papers that have studied these issues with regard to symbiodinium, and while you're at it why not go find the papers that DO exist on symbiodinium and artificial light.



If you like LEDs that is awesome. This is a hobby and you should use the light you enjoy most. This thread is a place where some very experienced reefers, myself included, are sharing their experience with LEDs and saying that something is different about how SPS grow under LEDs especially given the fact that LEDs are so varied in their application. If you disagree with that FACT then I'm afraid we simply have to agree to disagree.

How 'bout some pictures of your reef while we're at it. Or perhaps some macros of the awesome colors you are getting.

Here are some of mine. . .

Fantastic corals.



One of my biggest issues is coloration. I was running a 150HQI Radium on my 20g and could no longer keep heat under control. So, I thought I would temporarily go to a Hydra 52 while my other tank is being built. Most of my corals over a month or so went from a nice rich (to me) coloration to sort of washed out looking.

 

[JPMagyar]

IIRC white LEDs are full spectrum, like most white light. The Cree cool white in the AI hydra look like crap all on their own.

The real magic in Mh is the reflector. Without that it is just a point source light bulb. LED needs to mimic that spread. I think without a reflector would be better. It does mean the fixtures should probably look more like T-5 fixtures than the AI and echotec fixtures.

Full Spectrum is a term used by manufacturers to describe the color rendition of their LEDs. It is not in fact accurate from a physics stand point. The graphs they present to "demonstrate" the spectrum are generated using instruments that are not digital in nature and use smoothing algorithms to create the graphs. There are a very few materials that produce LED light and the wavelengths they create are limited. There is no known way to get a "spectrum" out of an LED. Manufacturers have gotten quite good at mixing materials at a nano level so as to have red, white, and blue LEDs mixed on a microscopic level thus creating the appearance of a "cool white" LED, but that "cool white" LED has big gaps in wavelengths that will only appear if you use very expensive equipment that can count photons of individual wavelengths.

This does not mean a "cool white" LED can't grow coral. It just means it doesn't have the same spectrum as metal halide or fluorescent, and the difference is observable in how certain corals color and grow, and that doesn't mean all corals or even most corals; it just means some corals. That is what I believe I have seen and that is what I believe Krzysztof noticed.