anyone tried to using Jebo WP40?

[salty joe]

Tap fraction refers to the setting on the pot. For example, a tap fraction of .5 would mean the pot is allowing 50% of the voltage through. At a tap fraction of 1.0 the pot would be wide open. I believe the tap fraction of salty joe's pot was unable to reach 1.0, which was limiting the 'top end' of his dimming signal. The circuit he posted actually allows more than 6v through the pot, but with his pot unable to reach a 1.0 tap fraction I believe at max it was allowing around 5v, which is why it worked for him.

I need to test on my own to verify all of this, but my simulations show this is the case.

Could be I had bad pots, but I doubt it. JMO.

A 50K pot cut some top end off. A 25K pot cut more top end off. Facts.

The highest V coming out of the VA line after I made the mod is 5.09V. I was told it won't hurt a thing-I don't pretend to know, but I'm OK with it.

Sims are not always the same as real life.

Like I said before, if just a pot or trimmer can control the speed without cutting the top end off, that would be cool.

 

[rrasco]

Is there any published data out there quantitifying motor wear between motor controlled by variable voltages vs motor controlled by PWM signals with fixed voltage?

I don't know much about electronics and don't really know when PWM was first utilized. There must be some studies done to compare impact of electrical equipment after PWM was discovered.

My scientific mind will only accept documented proof and not just "I said so" as Colin said.

You probably won't find exactly what you are looking for as there are tons of types of motors and different ways they are applied, but we are now traversing into the topic of motor control, which is an entire set of understanding on it's own. I understand most of the concepts, but I am also verifying my thoughts with....you got it, my motor control department. I don't know everything about motor control, but I am trying to share what I do know.

From the research and understanding I have, most of the issues are regarding excessive heat as has been stated by others in this thread. What happens is the motor needs 24v, but it only has 15v, so it has a harder time starting, it doesn't have enough power, so to compensate for this, current draw is increased. P=IV. Which leads to excessive heat and possible failure of the pump, it could burn out or simply draw more current and increase heat while decreasing efficiency. People stated this pump won't start with less than 12v, I think that was the value they said, and that's because it doesn't have enough power to start. Very similar to why when your car battery is bad or doesn't have a full charge, it fails to provide enough power for your starter to crank over your motor.

 

[rrasco]

Could be I had bad pots, but I doubt it. JMO.

A 50K pot cut some top end off. A 25K pot cut more top end off. Facts.

The highest V coming out of the VA line after I made the mod is 5.09V. I was told it won't hurt a thing-I don't pretend to know, but I'm OK with it.

Sims are not always the same as real life.

Like I said before, if just a pot or trimmer can control the speed without cutting the top end off, that would be cool.

I'm not sure why you had that issue, I just have my theories on why it may have happened. I may try this to figure out why it wouldn't work, but I don't intend to run my pumps that way so it really doesn't benefit me. Although, I may do it for those that do want that type of control.

 

[Colin]

Unlikely, but not impossible. If it was though, why would there even be a VA line? If the pump needed variable voltage to adjust the speed, the Jebao controller would not even bother with the VA line and just alter the voltage going to the pump.

Good point. Did I read somewhere that the stock controller takes a PWM signal and converts it to the 5VDCA control signal? That would seem to exclude PWM control as well.

You could always open your pump up and take some pictures for us.

Does anybody have a broken one?

There are two options:

PWM, which is a constant voltage (24v) with a duty cycle (25%, 50%, etc) that tells the motor at which respective speed to run.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_cycle

The other is a MOSFET. Which acts essentially the same way that a mechanical switch would. Imagine if you sat there and flipped a light switch on and off as fast as you could. That's how this would work, but much faster than you could do it manually. This is actually how LEDs are dimmed. When an LED is at 50% power, it's actually being switched off 50% of the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSFET

Good stuff. So, do both methods essentially have the same result? A square wave of either 0 or 24v with varying frequency?

And do they both regulate speed by switching the motor on-and-off rapidly?

Thanks again for the great explanations!

--Colin

 

[ingtar_shinowa]

To preface this, I am a nub. Most of what I know about Electronics I learned in this thread. That being said, if you drop the voltage at the source, wouldn't that just affect the controller since it regulated the power sent to the motor itself? It seem to a layman that reducing the voltage will take time off the controller not the pump. (PS I have a reefangle I will be operating this on so not much of an issue to me outside of curiosity)

 

[Colin]

To preface this, I am a nub. Most of what I know about Electronics I learned in this thread. That being said, if you drop the voltage at the source, wouldn't that just affect the controller since it regulated the power sent to the motor itself? It seem to a layman that reducing the voltage will take time off the controller not the pump. (PS I have a reefangle I will be operating this on so not much of an issue to me outside of curiosity)

My guess is that the 24V to the pump goes straight from the power supply to the pump. The controller probably regulates 5V for it's own use.

--Colin

 

[salty joe]

I was also told that 5.09V at the VA line won't make the pump run any faster than 5V will.

 

[Colin]

From the research and understanding I have, most of the issues are regarding excessive heat as has been stated by others in this thread. What happens is the motor needs 24v, but it only has 15v, so it has a harder time starting, it doesn't have enough power, so to compensate for this, current draw is increased. P=IV. Which leads to excessive heat and possible failure of the pump, it could burn out or simply draw more current and increase heat while decreasing efficiency. People stated this pump won't start with less than 12v, I think that was the value they said, and that's because it doesn't have enough power to start. Very similar to why when your car battery is bad or doesn't have a full charge, it fails to provide enough power for your starter to crank over your motor.

THIS clears up a lot for me.

So how does the inertia of a running pump affect this? Seems like a start from a dead stop would require more current than maintaining speed afterwards.

--Colin

 

[rrasco]

Good point. Did I read somewhere that the stock controller takes a PWM signal and converts it to the 5VDCA control signal? That would seem to exclude PWM control as well.

Good stuff. So, do both methods essentially have the same result? A square wave of either 0 or 24v with varying frequency?

And do they both regulate speed by switching the motor on-and-off rapidly?

Thanks again for the great explanations!

--Colin

Correct, PWM is converted to analog through a low-pass filter.

Honestly, I don't know about the rest...yet. I'll have to consult the motor experts. I'm learning through this process too. However, be careful using a term like frequency as that is not the same as duty cycle. I have a hard time comprehending that part as well, but there is a difference.

To preface this, I am a nub. Most of what I know about Electronics I learned in this thread. That being said, if you drop the voltage at the source, wouldn't that just affect the controller since it regulated the power sent to the motor itself? It seem to a layman that reducing the voltage will take time off the controller not the pump. (PS I have a reefangle I will be operating this on so not much of an issue to me outside of curiosity)

My guess is that the 24V to the pump goes straight from the power supply to the pump. The controller probably regulates 5V for it's own use.

--Colin

^ This. The controller doesn't regulate the power to the motor, not directly anyways, it regulates the 5v VA voltage.

I was also told that 5.09V at the VA line won't make the pump run any faster than 5V will.

It shouldn't, but you could harm the mechanism of control. At 0.09v, it probably won't affect anything.

THIS clears up a lot for me.

So how does the inertia of a running pump affect this? Seems like a start from a dead stop would require more current than maintaining speed afterwards.

--Colin

Remember, P=IV. As voltage decreases, current increase, assuming P is constant. You're right, starting requires more power than sustaining. Very similar to how gears in a transmission work, the lower gears require more power to do less work, i.e. to get started. Once you're moving, higher gears can be used to reduce the work load while doing more/same work. Same concept with an HVAC system, the fan has a starter capacitor to help store power for starting. Which goes into the concept of having different types of motors, some have starter capacitors to help with that.

 

[octopus737]

What i wanna know is can we get this pump to run a reef crest like mode and control intensity on the 0-5 volt side? Ya know. Like a vortech? The Else mode is a little harsh in my small tank. Possibly on Arduino or unused Vortech controller. Not on reef angel, I already have an Apex.

 

[rrasco]

What i wanna know is can we get this pump to run a reef crest like mode and control intensity on the 0-5 volt side? Ya know. Like a vortech? The Else mode is a little harsh in my small tank. Possibly on Arduino or unused Vortech controller. Not on reef angel, I already have an Apex.

Yes. It's been done already with an Apex, ReefAngel, and an Arduino. Neodunis (I think that's his username) posted code and how to do this somewhere earlier in the thread. You have to make your own cable for the Apex, someone knew how to do that as well but I believe he is now banned. I think you can use their 'wave patterns' or whatever they call them on the Apex. You'd have to look in other outlets, or all through this thread to figure out how to do it.

 

[jtmbtech]

This is what we know for sure the motor and controller is definitely designed to run on 24 volts! all the controller is designed to do is regulate the five volt signal on the VA line. The pump itself has circuitry inside of it to use the 0 - 5 volt signal to control the speed of the pump. We do not know if the controller or the circuitry inside of the pump are designed to run on anything less than 24 volts so why chance it!
Sent from my SGH-i777 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Colin]

This is what we know for sure the motor and controller is definitely designed to run on 24 volts! all the controller is designed to do is regulate the five volt signal on the VA line. The pump itself has circuitry inside of it to use the 0 - 5 volt signal to control the speed of the pump. We do not know if the controller or the circuitry inside of the pump are designed to run on anything less than 24 volts so why chance it!
Sent from my SGH-i777 using Tapatalk 2

Where's the fun in that?

For the record, I bought the adjustable power supply anticipating having to dial down the pump, but I run it at 24V on my 4' 83 bow on Else mode. The only setting it's too much on is W1 which really doesn't interest me anyway.

--Colin

 

[andyrm66]

THIS clears up a lot for me.

So how does the inertia of a running pump affect this? Seems like a start from a dead stop would require more current than maintaining speed afterwards.

--Colin

That is correct, and also why larger motors have startup capacitors. Take a small computer fan, its designed to run at 12 volts, it may not start at 10, but if you spin it by hand it will keep going as you have to overcome the "dwell" between poles. As for rest of the questions, rrasco seems to have a firm grasp on it.

 

[raynist]

So I ordered this as I saw someone post something like this earlier in the thread. Will this work correctly to control the pump?

Here are the specs:

Features :
Working voltage: DC9V-DC48V 6A
Control Power: 0.01-250W
StaticCurrent: 0.02A (standby)
PWM duty cycle: 3% -99%
PWM Frequency: 15khz

Package
100% Brand New
1 x PWM Pulse Width Modulation Motor Speed ​​Controller Switch Dimmer DC 9V-48V 6A

Here is a pic

 

[rrasco]

So I ordered this as I saw someone post something like this earlier in the thread. Will this work correctly to control the pump?

Here are the specs:

Features :
Working voltage: DC9V-DC48V 6A
Control Power: 0.01-250W
StaticCurrent: 0.02A (standby)
PWM duty cycle: 3% -99%
PWM Frequency: 15khz

Package
100% Brand New
1 x PWM Pulse Width Modulation Motor Speed ​​Controller Switch Dimmer DC 9V-48V 6A]

It's rated for 9-48v. The VA line needs 5v.

If you bought one that was rated for 5v, it would work but I would highly recommend passing the PWM through a LPF before delivering it to the VA line on the pump.

 

[SimonSKL]

I think Raynist is planning to put the PWM motor speed controller between the 24V power supply and the stock controller and use it to adjust the power to the pump.

 

[rrasco]

Oh, well, in that case. Have at it. I'm not aware of any issues with that.

 

[octopus737]

Got the cable. All i can do is set it up on apex with min and max on and off. Im so brain dead. Anyone know what post number is best reference to another way on apex? For that matter on Arduino?

Yes. It's been done already with an Apex, ReefAngel, and an Arduino. Neodunis (I think that's his username) posted code and how to do this somewhere earlier in the thread. You have to make your own cable for the Apex, someone knew how to do that as well but I believe he is now banned. I think you can use their 'wave patterns' or whatever they call them on the Apex. You'd have to look in other outlets, or all through this thread to figure out how to do it.

 

[SimonSKL]

So I ordered this as I saw someone post something like this earlier in the thread. Will this work correctly to control the pump?

Here are the specs:

Features :
Working voltage: DC9V-DC48V 6A
Control Power: 0.01-250W
StaticCurrent: 0.02A (standby)
PWM duty cycle: 3% -99%
PWM Frequency: 15khz

Package
100% Brand New
1 x PWM Pulse Width Modulation Motor Speed ​​Controller Switch Dimmer DC 9V-48V 6A

Here is a pic

Rrasco, if this PWM speed motor controller is installed between the 24v power supply and the stock controller, will the pump receive 24v at reduced power and not reduced voltage?