Are Deep Sand Beds, DSBs, dangerous to use in a marine aquarium?
- Thread starter JPMagyar
- Start date
Big E
Premium Member
I can only relate my experience and as Bill mentions I don't think performance is any different, but my plenum wasn't a detritus dump like a DSB............so there was never a PO4 problem.
I occasionally(every 3-months or when I remembered) vacuumed the top 1.5" layer as per the maintenance directions. Mine was a full 75g tank with a plenum. It was also my sump............the whole area had no rock interfaces...........again this is all layed out to have all the rock above the sand, not plunked into the sand like people do with DSBs.
There were also no worms, pods, ect......what it did was strictly bacterial driven.
LIke I said, when I scooped out the 4" layer of sand, it was spotless.........no brown filth or dust. There was only a thin layer of white dust on the glass tank bottom where the void was.
If you want to get data, you'd have to go way back before the internet to find anything as by 99-2000 Shimeck and his DSB brigade had taken over. Most of a penums popularity was pre-internet.
I know Goemans and Gamble had some scientific explanations, but for all I know it was pychobabble.................I remember a bunch of stupid debates between the DSB & plenum crews.....may be something in the RC archives.
You may be able to do a search on the Jaubert System ect.
I occasionally(every 3-months or when I remembered) vacuumed the top 1.5" layer as per the maintenance directions. Mine was a full 75g tank with a plenum. It was also my sump............the whole area had no rock interfaces...........again this is all layed out to have all the rock above the sand, not plunked into the sand like people do with DSBs.
There were also no worms, pods, ect......what it did was strictly bacterial driven.
LIke I said, when I scooped out the 4" layer of sand, it was spotless.........no brown filth or dust. There was only a thin layer of white dust on the glass tank bottom where the void was.
If you want to get data, you'd have to go way back before the internet to find anything as by 99-2000 Shimeck and his DSB brigade had taken over. Most of a penums popularity was pre-internet.
I know Goemans and Gamble had some scientific explanations, but for all I know it was pychobabble.................I remember a bunch of stupid debates between the DSB & plenum crews.....may be something in the RC archives.
You may be able to do a search on the Jaubert System ect.
Jaubert is the name you want to research under for the plenums, he's he guy that actually developed the technique. Goemans basically just started talking about Jaubert's technique in FAMA. Then he started the "scientific" stuff with Gamble, and the explanations they were coming up with didn't exactly make scientific sense...then a bit later the "aquaecolyzer" was born :lol:
CStrickland
New member
Julian Sprung wrote a decent overview of the basics of a Jaubert / Monaco plenum: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/aafeature
IMO it's interesting to learn about the history of the hobby, so we can build on the knowledge we have. Running a plenum nowadays would be kinda like buying a vintage car tho - maybe a fun side project but not the best way to get where you're going.
IMO it's interesting to learn about the history of the hobby, so we can build on the knowledge we have. Running a plenum nowadays would be kinda like buying a vintage car tho - maybe a fun side project but not the best way to get where you're going.
Big E
Premium Member
if you say so................14 year old plenum. TOTM in 2006
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2490773
CStrickland
New member
That's a beautiful tank, nice work!
obvi if it aint broke dont fix it, but if you were starting today you would put in a plenum? If so why?
Maybe I misread your earlier post, it sounded like you didn't think it improved performance so I'm confused which part of my post you disagree with.
obvi if it aint broke dont fix it, but if you were starting today you would put in a plenum? If so why?
Maybe I misread your earlier post, it sounded like you didn't think it improved performance so I'm confused which part of my post you disagree with.
Big E
Premium Member
Just this sentence---
I would set up a Jaubert/ Goemans plenum before I would ever do a Shimek DSB.
I took mine down because I needed that 75g tank for another project and I was running a BB in the main tank...........I didn't think I needed the plenum for nitrate control.
If I was going to start a new setup today I'd run a Berlin BB system which is another "vintage" way..........been around for at least 25 years.
I would set up a Jaubert/ Goemans plenum before I would ever do a Shimek DSB.
I took mine down because I needed that 75g tank for another project and I was running a BB in the main tank...........I didn't think I needed the plenum for nitrate control.
If I was going to start a new setup today I'd run a Berlin BB system which is another "vintage" way..........been around for at least 25 years.
CStrickland
New member
maybe berlin system is a Land Rover? They try to make fancy SUVs with over-complicated power sunroofs and gps but if you find yourself driving around the desert you don't want to have to depend on an Escalade to out run a tiger. Haha, I don't really know much about cars
Lots of people have good tanks running plenum and even DSB, but you never know if they would be just as good without it, and there's def a bunch of tanks that got really screwed up from dsb *shrugs* I think over the years the better (more efficient, harder to screw up, long term successful) methods do rise to the top. That's why you see people who know what they're talking about starting new tanks without deep sand. Hopefully we are learning as we go, so generally speaking fewer plenums, under gravel filters, canister filters, dsb, worms etc. would indicate that those cute ideas turned out not to work as well as Berlin and modifications of it for the goals most of us have - mostly nutrient control.
But maybe one has a different goal, like they think it's interesting to try a plenum even if it's not needed for nitrates, or they think worms are really cool and want to watch them like an ant farm in the dsb. That'd be the classic car - not for transport to work but for the art and fun of restoration or whatever
Lots of people have good tanks running plenum and even DSB, but you never know if they would be just as good without it, and there's def a bunch of tanks that got really screwed up from dsb *shrugs* I think over the years the better (more efficient, harder to screw up, long term successful) methods do rise to the top. That's why you see people who know what they're talking about starting new tanks without deep sand. Hopefully we are learning as we go, so generally speaking fewer plenums, under gravel filters, canister filters, dsb, worms etc. would indicate that those cute ideas turned out not to work as well as Berlin and modifications of it for the goals most of us have - mostly nutrient control.
But maybe one has a different goal, like they think it's interesting to try a plenum even if it's not needed for nitrates, or they think worms are really cool and want to watch them like an ant farm in the dsb. That'd be the classic car - not for transport to work but for the art and fun of restoration or whatever
Great discussion!
I can settle the argument - to each his own.
Some guys like to control as many parameters as possible. So they use a lot of gizmos. Some have great success, some don't. They don't like DSBs, because they're a little mysterious, and you give up some control.
Some guys like to let natural processes do the controlling. Rather than gizmos, they use bacteria, worms and plants, etc. They like DSBs, because they facilitate many natural processes. Some have great success, some don't.
Some guys fall somewhere in between.
Me, I'm a nature boy. I'm growing seagrasses in a 7-8 inch DSB. I don't disturb it. I let the plants and animals do that.
Aquariums are a display, modeling nature. The more of nature's players, the better.
That's my two cents. To each his own…
I can settle the argument - to each his own.
Some guys like to control as many parameters as possible. So they use a lot of gizmos. Some have great success, some don't. They don't like DSBs, because they're a little mysterious, and you give up some control.
Some guys like to let natural processes do the controlling. Rather than gizmos, they use bacteria, worms and plants, etc. They like DSBs, because they facilitate many natural processes. Some have great success, some don't.
Some guys fall somewhere in between.
Me, I'm a nature boy. I'm growing seagrasses in a 7-8 inch DSB. I don't disturb it. I let the plants and animals do that.
Aquariums are a display, modeling nature. The more of nature's players, the better.
That's my two cents. To each his own…
jason2459
Well-known member
I've also seen every other kind of tank system get screwed up. Usually what screws up those other methods is the same one that screws up some DSB tanks, lack of maintenance...i.e. the human was the weak link
Still waiting to see the harder screw up method be invented. Actually, if anything, I've found properly set up and maintained DSB (plenum or not) to be more robust than most methods.
Hmm, I still have been known to start tanks with DSB's.
CStrickland
New member
UGF are awesome! As seen on tv:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ecQmDiZFzQ8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
maybe a My Fun Fish(TM) tank is the user-proof maintenance system we've all been waiting for, you can even buy them at walmart :wildone:
PS Reverse UGF is different, that makes sense
jason2459
Well-known member
Funny thing is I have one of those for my daughter that has a beta in it. Works quite well and she can easily help do the water change. Win for both of us.
My main tank has and always will run a RUGF. I would believe though that it's a terrible filter and would not recommend it if you plan to only run it to perform all your filtering and nitrate reduction needs. I have no idea if it can even do that. It is however wonderful at providing a home to multiply the bio diversity of your tank. Which helps provide a balanced environment and a food source for many things.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Haha I have one of those too, for the Betta as well. Kept him alive for a lot longer than expected. The siphon system is OK but I will have to take everything out and clean off the gunk (white fungus)
tajaba
New member
mind blowing, how come no reef tank uses that?! :fun2:
al404
New member
sorry for my english but i'm not sure i correctly understood what @tmz is writing
Denitrification happens the most in upper sand bed because bacteria needs organic material that can't find in deeper sand. Is that correct?
Sorry but i always though that denitrification happens only in hypoxic under at least 4 inch of sand
"This means denitrifying bacteria can do quite well in shallow sand or even on bare surfaces . They even create hypoxic conditions in their mulm where anaerobic activity occurs;ie, using the NO3 for oxygen."
what is mulm?
if you have some articles too read it would be very appreciate
Denitrification happens the most in upper sand bed because bacteria needs organic material that can't find in deeper sand. Is that correct?
Sorry but i always though that denitrification happens only in hypoxic under at least 4 inch of sand
"This means denitrifying bacteria can do quite well in shallow sand or even on bare surfaces . They even create hypoxic conditions in their mulm where anaerobic activity occurs;ie, using the NO3 for oxygen."
what is mulm?
if you have some articles too read it would be very appreciate
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Remote dsb
Remote dsb
dsb are best isolated from the display tank.a container or 5 gallon pail should be plumbed into the system with 8 or more inches of sand. DSB IN DISPLAY tanks will eventually become saturated with detritus and cause what is often called old tank syndrome.IE a nutrient sink. only filtered water should pass over the remote DSB.
Remote dsb
dsb are best isolated from the display tank.a container or 5 gallon pail should be plumbed into the system with 8 or more inches of sand. DSB IN DISPLAY tanks will eventually become saturated with detritus and cause what is often called old tank syndrome.IE a nutrient sink. only filtered water should pass over the remote DSB.
karimwassef
Active member
I have a 3" sand bed with floating rocks in my DT. Almost all my sand bed is exposed to water flow. I also have a DSB in my cryptic zone under my refugium layer.
My sand is full of life. I have a small army of sand movers to keep the surface constantly moving beyond the worms and nassarius snails. I use sand sifting/moving fish (gobies and jawfish), horseshoe crabs, multiple species and sizes of conchs, starfish, and cucumbers. Wrasses seem to contribute as well with their evening nesting activities.
I have had no issues with it. I consider it a key element of my tank's ecosystem.
My sand is full of life. I have a small army of sand movers to keep the surface constantly moving beyond the worms and nassarius snails. I use sand sifting/moving fish (gobies and jawfish), horseshoe crabs, multiple species and sizes of conchs, starfish, and cucumbers. Wrasses seem to contribute as well with their evening nesting activities.
I have had no issues with it. I consider it a key element of my tank's ecosystem.
Deep buckets of sand do very little for nutrient control beyond the first half inch or so of depth. Not enough nutrients( nitrogen, phosphate, organic carbon et alia moves down far enough and/or fast enough via diffusion to sustain much bacterial activity. This has been thoroughly discussed throughout the thread.
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