ATI Powermodule too powerful for SPS?

[snaza]

Hi all,

I'm constantly having trouble with new SPS in my tank with a ATI 10 bulb PM

200G 60x33x21
lots of flow
water params are good and stable
alk 8
calc 420
po4 0.02
N03 0.2

My tank is only 21inch tall and have a 10x54 ATI PM about 10 inch above the water.

When i get new SPS they seem fine for a few weeks then I see the tips seem burned and loosing tissue. Not all SPS but maybe half. The tank has been running for 3 years and I reckon once they have acclimatized to the light thrive, but some just never do well. The tips start dying off over a few weeks then finally the it completely RTN.

I have other SPS that have been in the tank from the start (3 years) and are doing fine.

any idea would be great.

Aaron

 

[rps3]

Sounds like an alkalinity issue.

 

[LoJack]

Sounds like an alkalinity issue.

+1 Burnt tips is usually alkalinity fluctuation.

fading and or bleaching would point to lighting, but a power module definitely isn't too much light for SPS.

 

[SPotter]

thats a lot of light….i would bet if you put a par meter on the sand bend you are 300+ on the par. Im a believer that when you have intense lighting you need to have higher levels to support the growth. I would raise your alk and even let your nitrates climb a little. What is your photoperiod and what bulbs are you using?

 

[Borchers]

+1 burnt tips is usually alkalinity fluctuation.

Fading and or bleaching would point to lighting, but a power module definitely isn't too much light for sps.

+1

 

[snaza]

Hi all,

photo period is D/D 10 hours. main bulbs on 6 hours. ATI/KZ bulbs

Alk has been stable 8.0 for years.

The PAR is actually 520 on the sand bed in the centre and about 420 on the edges.

 

[Big E]

The PAR is actually 520 on the sand bed in the centre and about 420 on the edges.

That is extremely high...............I run at 200 an inch above the bottom of the tank and in the 500 area a few inches from the surface with T5's. Tank is 20" tall.

You could try to reduce your photoperiod down to about 4 hours with all the tubes on.........that should help with any photoinhibition. I would cut down total period to 8.

 

[ssscuz]

You will not have trouble with a powermodule.
Definately a parameter issue, we cannot give the light that the corals have in nature, far brighter than our lights

 

[afernandez]

the power module is the best light ive owned by far !

you just have to be careful bc you will burn/bleach any corals with such high par.
I had a dimable power module, I had it at 50% for more that 4 months and gradually increase it little by little.

 

[GroktheCube]

You could try elevating the fixture another 10" or so.

 

[mayjong]

are you running 100%?!

 

[Nanook]

Doubt it is the light as well...agree on chemistry issue.

 

[sahin]

fading and or bleaching would point to lighting, but a power module definitely isn't too much light for SPS.

You will not have trouble with a powermodule.
Definately a parameter issue

Doubt it is the light as well...agree on chemistry issue.

I doubt its the light. As others have said, too much high light and you would get bleaching on the upper surfaces of the corals...the corals may pale out as well. But I doubt it would result in such a high rate of SPS deaths.

I have the 8 tube ATI PM with LED's over my 47G tank. I get around 400+ PAR on the bottom of my tank. My corals are fine.

I have other corals that are getting around 550+ PAR and they too are fine.

I would have to say water issues is at play here. I've just searched your profile and it looks like you were having issues with brown algae last month:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2356271

Has that issue resolved?

Also beginning of 2013 you had what looks like to be a Dinos issue: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2251951

Has that resolved?

In my years of experience with SPS corals, 99% of the time, issues with SPS corals are due to problems with the water.

The PAR levels in your tank is very high no doubt, but I dont believe its the light causing this issue.

However, you may as suggested, run the 2 dawn/dusk tubes for about 8 hours and run the 8 other tubes around 4 hours. That SHOULD counter the high PAR. You can also raise the lights. You can also swap out at least 2-3 of the tubes with Actinics too.

If the two algae issues linked are now non existent then I would carry out a few VERY large water changes for at least 12 weeks. If you can get NSW easily and cheaply then that may be a good idea if you dont want to mix up lots of water.

Good luck and let us know how things go. :hmm2:

 

[snaza]

Hi Sahin,

Thanks for your detailed reply

regarding the algae issues. The algae about a month ago was caused by raising Mag a little too fast. That Diatoms looking stuff disappear in a few days.

The other hairy dino stuff a year ago was resolved by a couple big water changes and changing rowaphos. I also had a few old T5 bulbs which were replaced.

I've been algae free for a while now.

I agree, i've also found 99% of issues with SPS are chemistry but I can't find anything wrong. All params are stable. Other than alk is there any thing else you can think of?

The reason I think it is light is when i move corals from my frag tank (same water system) SPS that are usually very hairy don't have great polyp extension. If i move Zoa's from my frag tank they melt under my PM in a day or two. even if they are in the shade. I have other zoas under the PM which are doing fine but they've been there from the start.

I guess I'm not saying the PM is too much light, but rather it is too much stress/shock when moving corals from other systems or my frag tank.

This is my last tank which is using all the same equipment and water params. the only difference is the the pictured tank below had a DIY 7 bulb T5 system.



I'm due for a water change so will do a big one this weekend.

Thanks

Aaron

 

[rogerwilco357]

How are you acclimating the corals to the light? like mentioned the tips are indicative of A chemistry problem . I kept mine at 12" off the water and placed new coral on the bottom over time moved to mid to high for sps..I used the 10x54watt and the 8x80watt units with no issues they loved it..good luck and keep tabs on the alk for swings..

 

[sahin]

Hi Sahin,

Thanks for your detailed reply

regarding the algae issues. The algae about a month ago was caused by raising Mag a little too fast. That Diatoms looking stuff disappear in a few days.

The other hairy dino stuff a year ago was resolved by a couple big water changes and changing rowaphos. I also had a few old T5 bulbs which were replaced.

I've been algae free for a while now.

Thanks for confirming that. I just wanted to cover all bases. Like I said on that algae thread, well done for sticking with it and beating that algae. Not many will put up with a year long fight. :thumbsup:

I agree, i've also found 99% of issues with SPS are chemistry but I can't find anything wrong. All params are stable. Other than alk is there any thing else you can think of?

1. Have you had a friend test all the basic parameters? Alk, Ca, Mg, K, Salinity, etc etc? Just to rule out a bad test kit.

2. Also have you tested for pests?

3. Have you placed a coral from the Frag system into the display and before it goes completely unhealthy, have you tried putting it back into the frag system to see if it recovers?

4. How is the FRAG SYSTEM connected to the sump? Is the 3 components; DISPLAY, FRAG SYSTEM and SUMP connected in a LOOP? Or is the display connected to the sump in one loop, and the frag system connected to the FRAG SYSTEM in another loop with its own pump/drain etc?
- I hope you understand what I mean by this. Basically, are the 3 are connected in a single LOOP where the SAME volume of water has to flow through each...or is it that the DISPLAY and FRAG SYSTEM have their own connections to the SUMP?

- I ask this because it can make a big difference. Its its the same LOOP, then you can assume that parameters etc are the same. However, if the DISPLAY and SUMP are connected individually to the SUMP then parameters can be different...

The reason I think it is light is when i move corals from my frag tank (same water system) SPS that are usually very hairy don't have great polyp extension. If i move Zoa's from my frag tank they melt under my PM in a day or two. even if they are in the shade. I have other zoas under the PM which are doing fine but they've been there from the start.

I guess I'm not saying the PM is too much light, but rather it is too much stress/shock when moving corals from other systems or my frag tank.

That is tricky...and I can see why you think it might be the ATI PM. Under the those circumstances, I would have thought the same.

However, if it is indeed too much light, you can easily test this by raising the fixture by at least 6inches. That will cut at least 75-100 PAR. Also reduce the light hours. IF after this you still have the issues then you CAN rule out the PM...

The one thing that concerns me is that you mentioned SPS having loss of PE in the display...this could be PESTS or WATER issue...

But it depends on HOW QUICKLY the PE loss occurs???

This is my last tank which is using all the same equipment and water params. the only difference is the the pictured tank below had a DIY 7 bulb T5 system.



I'm due for a water change so will do a big one this weekend.

Thanks

Aaron

I remember that beautiful tank. I stayed with T5 technology because of that tank of yours and a few others tanks.

I think the sure way of eliminating the ATI PM being the culprit is getting hold of a PAR meter too see what the actual PAR numbers are.

Having said that, running the fixture at a significantly increased height WILL reduce the PAR a lot.

 

[jda]

If your parameters are all good, then check for pests.

 

[snaza]

Hi again,

Thank for the reply. Just to confirm I didn't have that algae problem for a year, was more like 2 months.

to answer your questions.

1. I've checked all parameters with multiple test kits.

2. I've looked hard for pests over the past year but never found anything.

3. Yes i have put a coral back in the frag tank but it still dies. Seems once they start with the symptoms there is nothing i can do.

4.My return pump has a T and one goes to DT and the other to the FT. Both have separate drains to the sump.

Regarding PE i didn't explain that very well. what i meant what frags in my FT have huge PE but then i move to DT there is less. They still have PE just not as much. Maybe they are just adjusting to the different light. Here is a couple of pics

Frag Tank




Display Tank





Here is the same SPS, mother colony, then 1 month later.

SPS mother colony.




Frag 1 month after been in my tank.




Notice the tips are dying or expelling zoanthallae? not like a normal STN. It usually starts about 3-4 weeks after the sps are introduced into the tank. Could it be light shock? Eventually all the flesh fades but the polyps are still out, extending and green.

The other strange thing is if i buy 4 new SPS only 1 or 2 of them has this issue. The others do fine and grow like crazy. It seems if they can make it through the first month they will do fine for ever.


Here are the PAR readings from my tank when i first set it up




Sorry for the long post.

I've been feeding more food and i'm going to cut the photoperiod i bit.

cheers

Aaron :wavehand:

 

[sahin]

I dont know reef fish too well, but is that an Angel below the Yellow Tang...If so he is highly likely to be responsible for the lack of or reduced PE.

Arent they also likely to bite the acro tips?

 

[snaza]

I dont know reef fish too well, but is that an Angel below the Yellow Tang...If so he is highly likely to be responsible for the lack of or reduced PE.

Arent they also likely to bite the acro tips?

Its a coral beauty. They are considered reef safe. i've had it for 8 years and never seen it go near any SPS.