Bean animal experts needed.

F

firemedix911

New member
I've spent the best part of the last 3 days trying to dial in my overflow on my new build. I can't seem to be able to get it to work as it should. It's always a different issue that when addressed causes another issue. So if you are in the Miami area and have some spare time to lend me a hand setting this up Id really appreciate it. Beers and Steak on me and frags in the future.
 
I am not going to be in Miami for a week, but if you want to try and diagnose a little on the forum I will try to help...
 
I'm certainly no expert but can you post pics of your setup and the issues you are seeing, collectively the community may be able to assist you. Also, I'll be using the same when my new tank is ready and I'm sure this would benefit not only myself but others on here?
 
I will take pics tomorrow and post them up. I'm gonna be down for a couple of days as my new pump needs to be replaced. But basically is C2C overflow interior box going with 2 1.5" bulkheads dumping into the external overflow box in the back of the tank.

Issues I'm running into.
Sump level too high, Water going from the tank into the overflow back box rushes in too hard/fast and causes too much agitation and bubbles in the box. Can't keep a full syphon.
 
Do you just have the 3 openings inside the overflow and no U-pipes? There should be 2 U-pipes, one higher then the other, and an emergency pipe which would be higher then the other two. Shortest of the U's should have a valve (ball/gate) to dial it in (which I think you have in the pic and the valve itself is inside the stand)?
 
Bean animal experts needed.

Do you have 90s in your external box?

***Disregard, just saw your response to the other person.
 
I think you already pointed out the problem. Your sump level might be too high. I think the outlets can't sit more than an inch of water.
 
tdhnry said:
I think you already pointed out the problem. Your sump level might be too high. I think the outlets can't sit more than an inch of water.
Click to expand...

That is correct - 1" is usually about perfect. Also, if the siphon pipe is not straight into the sump, you will have issues getting a siphon to start.
 
Ok some background here as these pictures and description may make giving assistance confusing.....

1st. Its a coast to coast overflow running into the back transition box with 2x1.5 exit bulkheads

2nd 3 stand pipes 1.5 each a. main full syphon b. secondary full syphon c. emergency drain

3rd Positioned staggered as per been animal suggested setup from main with gate valves on main and secondary

4th Reeflow Hammerhead/Snapper Hybrid pump with tru unions to adjust output if desired

5th Stand pipes were originally positioned in the transition box at a height below the input holes from the C2C overflow allowing water entering the transition box to cause a loud noise and agitation

6th water was entering the DT at a rate that the full syphon is not fully kicking in and water levels in the DT raise due to not exiting the transition box correctly

7th water levels in the transition box raise then fall (full syphon kicking in) then breaking full syphon and sucking in air before he has a chance to make adjustments via gate valves ......then causing DT to have slightly higher than desired water levels due to full syphon needing to purge air out of the main syphon line before readjusting to natural running levels

8th Plumbing has manifolds in place but no reactors in place running

I recommended to him to

1st fix # 5 ....the levels of the stand pipes need to be at a level moved slightly higher to allow water level entering the transition box to remain submerged and not waterfalling into the box....thus allowing full syphon to remain without all the agitation and splashing and noise

2nd toggle the pump back slightly to a level that allows the DT to remain at a constant level without raising too fast while making adjustments on the gate valves to desired levels (sweet spot) for the full syphon to kick in and then adjusting the secondary gate valve and main to run desired levels of input vs output

3rd now once levels have leveled out and full syphon is running as designed make adjacent adjustments to opening up pump to full levels equally making needed adjustments to gate valves to allow for more volume of water in the full syphon

4th recalibration may need to be made once all reactors are placed in line and as pipes become broken in with slime coats

here is also some information about your full syphon and transition rates gph from one of beans post

<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/bulkhead_flow_rates_zpssvnzax7c.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/bulkhead_flow_rates_zpssvnzax7c.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo bulkhead_flow_rates_zpssvnzax7c.jpg"/></a>

and here is some information for you on Water flow...per bean

Yes water is pulled by gravity. It (for our purposes) behaves like a solid when it is confined by a pipe, so the further it falls, the faster it falls. It pulls on the water above it as well. I will leave it to you to research if the "pull" is created by surface tension or displacement

In any case we use the basic Bernoulli equation to explain how much water falls how fast.

Lets take the 2" SCH80 Bulkhead with a 1.913 inch I.D. and 48" of head.

h = "height" and denotes the head (water height) above the hole.
g = "gravity" denotes the free fall of an object here on earth.. (32ft/sec)squared

So we find the velocity and then plug it into the basic formula:
Q = A * V

Lets do some math:
2" SCH#80 PVC pipe I.D. = 1.913 inches.

So:
h= 6" = 4'
A= 2.873" sq. = 0.01995' sq.
g= 32f/s sq.

Find the Velocity:
V = sqrt(2* 32f/s^2 * 4f) = 16f/s

Find the flow rate (Q):
Q= 0.01995f^2 * 16f/s = 0.3192 Cubic Feet per Second.

The Result:
0.3192 Cubic Feet per Second = 143.25 Gallons Per minute
143.25 Gallons per Minute = 8595 Gallons Per Hour.

Long drop, lots of pipe and fittings... lets say 7250 GPH

Now... the larger the drop, the more friction and turbulance affect the velocity and therefore, the overall flow. Also note that "terminal" velocity is reached much faster due to the friction and turbulance and that cavitation can occur if the pressure drop (caused by the water falling through the pipe) exceeds the surface tension of the water itself....
 
Last edited:
What he said:confused:

mrx66699 said:
Ok lets give everyone some background here as these pictures and description may make assistance confusing.....

1st. Its a coast to coast overflow running into the back transition box with 2x1.5 exit bulkheads

2nd 3 stand pipes 1.5 each a. main full syphon b. secondary full syphon c. emergency drain

3rd Positioned staggered as per been animal suggested setup from main with gate valves on main and secondary

4th Reeflow Hammerhead/Snapper Hybrid pump with tru unions to adjust output if desired

5th Stand pipes were originally positioned in the transition box at a height below the input holes from the C2C overflow allowing water entering the transition box to cause a loud noise and agitation

6th water was entering the DT at a rate that the full syphon is not fully kicking in and water levels in the DT raise due to not exiting the transition box correctly

7th water levels in the transition box raise then fall (full syphon kicking in) then breaking full syphon and sucking in air before he has a chance to make adjustments via gate valves ......then causing DT to have slightly higher than desired water levels due to full syphon needing to purge air out of the main syphon line before readjusting to natural running levels

8th Plumbing has manifolds in place but no reactors in place running

I recommended to him to

1st fix # 5 ....the levels of the stand pipes need to be at a level moved slightly higher to allow water level entering the transition box to remain submerged and not waterfalling into the box....thus allowing full syphon to remain without all the agitation and splashing and noise

2nd toggle the pump back slightly to a level that allows the DT to remain at a constant level without raising too fast while making adjustments on the gate valves to desired levels (sweet spot) for the full syphon to kick in and then adjusting the secondary gate valve and main to run desired levels of input vs output

3rd now once levels have leveled out and full syphon is running as designed make adjacent adjustments to opening up pump to full levels equally making needed adjustments to gate valves to allow for more volume of water in the full syphon

4th recalibration may need to be made once all reactors are placed in line and as pipes become broken in with slime coats

here is also some information about your full syphon and transition rates gph from one of beans post

<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/bulkhead_flow_rates_zpssvnzax7c.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/bulkhead_flow_rates_zpssvnzax7c.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo bulkhead_flow_rates_zpssvnzax7c.jpg"/></a>

and here is some information for you on Water flow...per bean

Yes water is pulled by gravity. It (for our purposes) behaves like a solid when it is confined by a pipe, so the further it falls, the faster it falls. It pulls on the water above it as well. I will leave it to you to research if the "pull" is created by surface tension or displacement

In any case we use the basic Bernoulli equation to explain how much water falls how fast.

Lets take the 2" SCH80 Bulkhead with a 1.913 inch I.D. and 48" of head.

h = "height" and denotes the head (water height) above the hole.
g = "gravity" denotes the free fall of an object here on earth.. (32ft/sec)squared

So we find the velocity and then plug it into the basic formula:
Q = A * V

Lets do some math:
2" SCH#80 PVC pipe I.D. = 1.913 inches.

So:
h= 6" = 4'
A= 2.873" sq. = 0.01995' sq.
g= 32f/s sq.

Find the Velocity:
V = sqrt(2* 32f/s^2 * 4f) = 16f/s

Find the flow rate (Q):
Q= 0.01995f^2 * 16f/s = 0.3192 Cubic Feet per Second.

The Result:
0.3192 Cubic Feet per Second = 143.25 Gallons Per minute
143.25 Gallons per Minute = 8595 Gallons Per Hour.

Long drop, lots of pipe and fittings... lets say 7250 GPH

Now... the larger the drop, the more friction and turbulance affect the velocity and therefore, the overall flow. Also note that "terminal" velocity is reached much faster due to the friction and turbulance and that cavitation can occur if the pressure drop (caused by the water falling through the pipe) exceeds the surface tension of the water itself....
Click to expand...
 
3 stand pipes 1.5 each a. main full syphon b. secondary full syphon c. emergency drain
Click to expand...

In a BeanAnimal setup the second pipe is not a full siphon and does not require a gate valve. It should be left full open. It's primary purpose is to give water a place to go while the siphon is engaging. After that, only a trickle of water will go there.

Ideally, the secondary pipe should have an air valve that will have a tube that terminates just below the emergency drain. That way if the water level rises for some reason (e.g the primary siphon gets clogged). The secondary pipe will become a siphon.

Emergency pipe is last chance / resort...
 
adova said:
In a BeanAnimal setup the second pipe is not a full siphon and does not require a gate valve. It should be left full open. It's primary purpose is to give water a place to go while the siphon is engaging. After that, only a trickle of water will go there.

Ideally, the secondary pipe should have an air valve that will have a tube that terminates just below the emergency drain. That way if the water level rises for some reason (e.g the primary siphon gets clogged). The secondary pipe will become a siphon.

Emergency pipe is last chance / resort...
Click to expand...

Gate valve allows use of the secondary to become full syphon if any problems with the main and it needs to take the place of the primary for any duration of time (better to be in place and of use during build than after) he stated that he built things per the bean animal thread (plumbing) are we correct you included the jg valve and line FIRE
 
Gate valve allows use of the secondary to become full syphon if any problems with the main and it needs to take the place of the primary for any duration of time
Click to expand...

Fair enough - hopefully never have to use it for duration, lol :) - I put one on mine and the BeanAnimal thread monitors told me I shouldn't have, but I can see your point.
 
Yeah second gate valve is just for convenience. I'm gonna try to get the pipping in the overflow higher and see if that way it makes it easier to maintain full siphon. It'll be a clue of days a I have to wait on a replacement pump from Reeflo. Thanks for the input and I apologize for the lack of pics and vids. I will get some once I'm home. Just hang with me for a little bit longer.
 
mrx66699 said:
Ok some background here as these pictures and description may make giving assistance confusing.....

1st. Its a coast to coast overflow running into the back transition box with 2x1.5 exit bulkheads

2nd 3 stand pipes 1.5 each a. main full syphon b. secondary full syphon c. emergency drain

3rd Positioned staggered as per been animal suggested setup from main with gate valves on main and secondary

4th Reeflow Hammerhead/Snapper Hybrid pump with tru unions to adjust output if desired

5th Stand pipes were originally positioned in the transition box at a height below the input holes from the C2C overflow allowing water entering the transition box to cause a loud noise and agitation

6th water was entering the DT at a rate that the full syphon is not fully kicking in and water levels in the DT raise due to not exiting the transition box correctly

7th water levels in the transition box raise then fall (full syphon kicking in) then breaking full syphon and sucking in air before he has a chance to make adjustments via gate valves ......then causing DT to have slightly higher than desired water levels due to full syphon needing to purge air out of the main syphon line before readjusting to natural running levels

8th Plumbing has manifolds in place but no reactors in place running

I recommended to him to

1st fix # 5 ....the levels of the stand pipes need to be at a level moved slightly higher to allow water level entering the transition box to remain submerged and not waterfalling into the box....thus allowing full syphon to remain without all the agitation and splashing and noise

2nd toggle the pump back slightly to a level that allows the DT to remain at a constant level without raising too fast while making adjustments on the gate valves to desired levels (sweet spot) for the full syphon to kick in and then adjusting the secondary gate valve and main to run desired levels of input vs output

3rd now once levels have leveled out and full syphon is running as designed make adjacent adjustments to opening up pump to full levels equally making needed adjustments to gate valves to allow for more volume of water in the full syphon

4th recalibration may need to be made once all reactors are placed in line and as pipes become broken in with slime coats

here is also some information about your full syphon and transition rates gph from one of beans post

<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/bulkhead_flow_rates_zpssvnzax7c.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/bulkhead_flow_rates_zpssvnzax7c.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo bulkhead_flow_rates_zpssvnzax7c.jpg"/></a>

and here is some information for you on Water flow...per bean

Yes water is pulled by gravity. It (for our purposes) behaves like a solid when it is confined by a pipe, so the further it falls, the faster it falls. It pulls on the water above it as well. I will leave it to you to research if the "pull" is created by surface tension or displacement

In any case we use the basic Bernoulli equation to explain how much water falls how fast.

Lets take the 2" SCH80 Bulkhead with a 1.913 inch I.D. and 48" of head.

h = "height" and denotes the head (water height) above the hole.
g = "gravity" denotes the free fall of an object here on earth.. (32ft/sec)squared

So we find the velocity and then plug it into the basic formula:
Q = A * V

Lets do some math:
2" SCH#80 PVC pipe I.D. = 1.913 inches.

So:
h= 6" = 4'
A= 2.873" sq. = 0.01995' sq.
g= 32f/s sq.

Find the Velocity:
V = sqrt(2* 32f/s^2 * 4f) = 16f/s

Find the flow rate (Q):
Q= 0.01995f^2 * 16f/s = 0.3192 Cubic Feet per Second.

The Result:
0.3192 Cubic Feet per Second = 143.25 Gallons Per minute
143.25 Gallons per Minute = 8595 Gallons Per Hour.

Long drop, lots of pipe and fittings... lets say 7250 GPH

Now... the larger the drop, the more friction and turbulance affect the velocity and therefore, the overall flow. Also note that "terminal" velocity is reached much faster due to the friction and turbulance and that cavitation can occur if the pressure drop (caused by the water falling through the pipe) exceeds the surface tension of the water itself....
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 
Jesus Matt!

My take on things. Your return might be too beastly. Put a gate valve on there and throttle it back. Other thing to consider is make sure your main siphon line is only about an inch below your desired sump level water (usually set by a baffle). If its too deep the system may not be able to purge the air from the line and make a full siphon possible. If you have too much water in the system you may be exacerbating this problem. Should not be difficult to dial in. Physics is physics.

I would add the gate valve to the return, remove water from system, make sure your drain pipe is not too deep, open the siphon valve all the way and crank the system. It will gush at first. Slowly start to close the valve until things stabilize. Good luck!

Edit.....wait a few minutes between adjustments. If you go too fast you will chase your tail. Start with bigger adjustments and fine tune from there.....
 
Well yeah, except for the pipe being 1" below the surface. I just presented everything in a condensed easy to read and follow format, not like the dissertation you posted:p
 
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