Behind the scenes of a large wholesaler

[doublenerds]

As long as the majority of coral reefs are in corrupt third world nations we will continue to over harvest and the results are bad.

OK, veering slightly off-topic here but I think it's important when discussing ethical practices to avoid racist finger-pointing.

I urge you to think a bit more carefully before attributing the characteristics of corrupt governance only to developing nations. I'm pretty sure that Indonesia didn't facilitate a worldwide financial crisis through the practice of highly unethical, government-endorsed sub-prime mortgage lending and repackaging. That would be the "uncorrupt" Unites States that did that.

We're also the ones that are sitting still while oil companies enjoy some of the highest profits in history and consumer gas prices rise to astronomical levels. It's not the Phillipines that refused to even consider cutting billions of dollars of taxpayer incentives currently given to American oil companies...that would our US Senate (well, the Republicans anyway) that did that.

Where there are people holding power, there is corruption. If you think "first world" countries hold some special status in this regard, then you are sadly mistaken.

 

[doublenerds]

I can't edit my message above, or I would change my first sentence. I did not mean to accuse anyone of being a racist. What I'm really trying to get at is that corruption is not the province of the poor....developed nations are probably much, much worse in many ways.

 

[MHG]

I can't edit my message above, or I would change my first sentence. I did not mean to accuse anyone of being a racist. What I'm really trying to get at is that corruption is not the province of the poor....developed nations are probably much, much worse in many ways.

Thanks, you almost had my hat fall of there... I did say most reefs in 3rd world. not all third worlds are corrupt. I will not respond to the politics to keep the moderators happy...

 

[JamOne1]

I don’t see how anyone could claim to appreciate the reef out one side of their mouth (an assumption, granted) and accept a 90% mortality rate out the other. I list 3 ways to minimize the risk of loss: buying fragged corals and tank bred fish and purchasing within one’s abilities (i.e. buy a strawberry basslet instead of an achilles tang). None of these require a love it or leave it attitude toward the hobby.

That being said, saltwater fish have to be one of the most difficult things to ship (alive).To be fair, I know the wholesaler I referenced above has made improvements to their facility and my coworker has said he has a couple shipments arrive recently with much lower losses (he still buys from them, I don't). They seem to have opted toward responsibility. However, that day has made its mark and I am very wary about my fish purchases. I like organism’s slaughterhouse reference: I saw my hamburger get slaughtered and now I am not so hungry.

I hope wholesalers and collectors have websites like this to help each other, because they have as much room for improvement as we do.

 

[Fish Biscuit]

I work in freight forwarding & some of it has do to do with the routing of the shipment. The good airlines are never cheap & some people would rather save $2 or $3 per kg to use a crap airline with multiple stops & arrival 5 days after departure than pay the extra $$ & possibly have your cargo within 24 to 36 hours after departure. The airlines allow your perishables & live animals to be tendered closer to the departure time & that is the first cargo off the plane, usually available for pick up within a few hours of landing.

Until everything can be captive bred this will be part of the problem, the solution is to buy from responsible people & not some bum trying to make a quick buck.

 

[Caesra]

I hope wholesalers and collectors have websites like this to help each other, because they have as much room for improvement as we do.

Not likely, I have often thought of a breeder coop....not info site...breeder 'collection' coop. Would do many good things

 

[doctorgori]

I've been to a few wholesalers...the one described may be a lil extreme, but before I bash them I'm reliving my hundreds if not thousands of fish sales personally done by myself and wonder what has happened to all the fish I've personally bought...
..If I was to be 100% honest I'd bet I only pass on (or trade up) 50% and eventually kill another 50% one way or another

not justifying the horrible handling, just saying this is a "end of the road" deal for every fish removed from the wild...

seems us hobbyist got our work cut out for us to captive breed what we can

BTW, not to go off topic, but the entire ocean is horribly overfished...the grocery stores/fish markets of today are a sorry state compared to what you could buy in the 70's (back then tiliapia was a aquarium fish) ..... today: tilipia, swai & farm raised salom, tommorow: "Soylent green" he he

 

[James77]

Thanks for trolling my response, BTW.

Chrissreef was not trolling your thread, merely making a post in it. Just becuase someone makes a differing point of view does not make them a troll. He was just pointing out a fact.

 

[808Rob]

SUPPORT AQUACULTURE!!!
Isn't that what we're trying to do with our tanks???

 

[noobtothereef]

On the sad part, the wild collection, import, wholsale and to the retailer keeps the prices cheap, if for some reason wild collection was banned, our hobby would get unafordable, prices would skyrocket because aquaculturing and captive breeding couldnt keep up with the demand, we need to change this quickly, if you look at cites quotas they have been increasing rapidly over the years, eventually species will be wiped out.

And for the wholesalers, it would cost them more money in the long run trying to keep a higher percentage of livestock alive than just doing what they are doing now, remember wholesalers are big business and the bottom line is all that matters.

 

[victornator333]

Reading all of these posts give me different perspectives towards our hobby....but in the end we are all the problem. It seems that whether the argument is that we should..."buy captive bred when available" or "do research before" or "avoid the cheap wholesalers", and so on and so forth are all doing the same thing....defending themselves or justifying their actions. of course we all love reefkeeping but at the same time, we all feel guilty to some extent of what we are doing to the environment as a hobbyist population. i think the fact of the matter is that the humans are fascinated by the ocean and sadly, to the detriment of the ocean, its become a commodity for some people. now whether that is wrong or not is up to you. From the people who do the dirty work in collecting, the wholesalers, the LFS, even the people who run these forums, all make money from the hobby. are they bad people for trying to make a living? as humans, anything we think we can take from our surroundings and use it to benefit us will PROBABLY BE TAKEN AND USED. its just the way we are and how we operate as a species. is a cattle herder at fault for bringing life to thousands of heads of cattle just so that they will meet their ultimate doom at the slaughterhouse? so with that in mind, should all us beef-eating americans purchase meat from "cattle friendly" slaughterhouses should they exist? I guess all im saying is that if you go into this hobby, you should always understand that to some extent you are putting a strain to the environment regardless of how "careful" you might be. its not fair to put the blame on others when we all factor into the equation.

Thank you, i will now step off my soap box

 

[GreshamH]

Wow, that's definitely not your typical wholesaler. The live arrival rate at wholesalers is over 80%, not 50%. The reason you're seeing 50% at that one is probably a combination of their cut rate suppliers and, more importantly, the fact that the corals passed through LA on their way to Chicago, adding an extra 8 or so hours onto their already extremely long commute.

All of the ones I've seen in LA drip acclimate the fish in species specific containers for about 30 or so minutes before putting them in their systems. Medications keep the subsequent die off low at 10%ish, but some fish have higher DOA's and others have less than 5% overall.

I agree 100% that hobbyists should only buy and demand captive raised fish from LFS if those species are available, it would make a huge change in the hobby siunce even an overall 70% death rate is way too high imo, so don't get me wrong that I'm not on the same page as you. Thing is though, you basically went backstage at the butcher shop to see the slaughterhouse, it may be a bit unsightly to visitors, and it might have been a really crappy slaughterhouse, but if you like meat, well, for the most part that's how it gets on your plate.

I've been to wholesalers at every port of entry in the US. I have never seen one as bad as he states that one was (and I know just who he is talking about and I know their exporters...leaving it at that ). The outfit I spent 5 years at had a 1 - 3% DOA/DAA combined.

The poster also doesn't know details beyond what was posted it appears... like did that shipment get diverted in Singapore on its way from PI? I've seen countless shipments that instead of 24 - 48 hours, hitting 72+. Was it super hot on the tarmac in the export country? Did Customs of USF7WS sit on the invoice? So many factors that can go into a poor shipment.

 

[GreshamH]

I hope wholesalers and collectors have websites like this to help each other, because they have as much room for improvement as we do.

There is a place many of us wholesalers and industry people used to gather at... but info sharing, you know, something that gives your competition a leg up, isn't really what business is about.... so very little good stuff was ever shared, or will be shared. Some dedicated people like me tried to share but were not welcomed with open arms really.

 

[aday2remmbr]

i have a very good friend that is one of the many collectors for a very large saltwater fish company that everyone knows im sure ( starts with a "pet" and ends with a "co"). well i was invited to tag along with him to collect some fish, and by the end of the day i could have puked. they had poured large amounts of cyanide into the water and when the majority of the fish had hidden in the coral outcroppings and they werent having much luck catching any they would light a stick of dynamite and toss it in.

just by the time the boat had gotten back to shore a good 75 percent of the fish were already dead and the ones surviving were not looking good.
quite an experience.

 

[Gill_bucket]

i have a very good friend that is one of the many collectors for a very large saltwater fish company that everyone knows im sure ( starts with a "pet" and ends with a "co"). well i was invited to tag along with him to collect some fish, and by the end of the day i could have puked. they had poured large amounts of cyanide into the water and when the majority of the fish had hidden in the coral outcroppings and they werent having much luck catching any they would light a stick of dynamite and toss it in.

just by the time the boat had gotten back to shore a good 75 percent of the fish were already dead and the ones surviving were not looking good.
quite an experience.

I don't want to be rude, but I am having a really hard time buying this post. Where were you when this happened?

 

[billsreef]

i have a very good friend that is one of the many collectors for a very large saltwater fish company that everyone knows im sure ( starts with a "pet" and ends with a "co"). well i was invited to tag along with him to collect some fish, and by the end of the day i could have puked. they had poured large amounts of cyanide into the water and when the majority of the fish had hidden in the coral outcroppings and they werent having much luck catching any they would light a stick of dynamite and toss it in.

just by the time the boat had gotten back to shore a good 75 percent of the fish were already dead and the ones surviving were not looking good.
quite an experience.

Umm, the "referenced" company does not run any collecting stations or directly do any import/export. However, they do use several large suppliers...one of which supplies the majority of their fish and is one of the largest operations in the US with several overseas collection stations.

 

[aday2remmbr]

yes i am aware, their supplier is segrest farms, they also supply petsmart and several of the lfs' in colorado, we were in the western pacific specifically around indonesia and micronesia.

 

[deehz]

SUPPORT AQUACULTURE!!!
Isn't that what we're trying to do with our tanks???

A M E N!!!
I just hope this is what we all in this hobby are collectively aiming towards--responsible reef keeping.

 

[organism]

i have a very good friend that is one of the many collectors for a very large saltwater fish company that everyone knows im sure ( starts with a "pet" and ends with a "co"). well i was invited to tag along with him to collect some fish, and by the end of the day i could have puked. they had poured large amounts of cyanide into the water and when the majority of the fish had hidden in the coral outcroppings and they werent having much luck catching any they would light a stick of dynamite and toss it in.

just by the time the boat had gotten back to shore a good 75 percent of the fish were already dead and the ones surviving were not looking good.
quite an experience.

I'm trying to find a nice way of saying that's an outright lie, but... that's an outright lie. Dynamite creates a shockwave that kills fish almost instantly, it's why they use it for fishing, and collectors do not and will never use it. It's like saying someone harvests strawberries with a lawnmower. Collectors get paid for the live fish they bring back, so why you'd feel a need to make something like that up is beyond me.

Also, "pet" and "co" do not own collection stations, and as a result don't have specific collectors. The only plausible part to your story is that, at some point in time in your life, you were on a boat.

 

[Gill_bucket]

I'm trying to find a nice way of saying that's an outright lie, but... that's an outright lie. Dynamite creates a shockwave that kills fish almost instantly, it's why they use it for fishing, and collectors do not and will never use it. It's like saying someone harvests strawberries with a lawnmower. Collectors get paid for the live fish they bring back, so why you'd feel a need to make something like that up is beyond me.

Also, "pet" and "co" do not own collection stations, and as a result don't have specific collectors. The only plausible part to your story is that, at some point in time in your life, you were on a boat.

I am guessing he is younger than some people on this sites fish. LOL. Still though I don't remember being a teller of tall tales when I was an adolescent.