Bio-pellets, Vinegar, Vodka, or ???

Mock

Mock

Saltwater Junkie
What would be the choice... I have heard some nasty stuff about most everything but Vinegar....
 
all the methods mentioned have their positives and negatives
there are people using all 3 methods that have good experiences to relate

I have experimented with all 3 of the listed methods, and have finally settled on using Vinegar for my set up

I used Vodka for many months, and in general it performed as it was reputed to do so ( eliminating N and P according to Salifert test kits and very little algae or algae build up on glass etc)
it did give me a minor issue with cyno, only very small amounts, and manageable with syphon, water changes etc, but the introduction of vinegar to gradually phase out the vodka, has ultimatley removed even that small negative from the Vodka dosing

Bio pellets are a lot easier to set up and maintain ( once set up, periodic glances to check its all still there and being tumbled are all the maintenance required)
 
Vodka and vinegar are cheap options will lots of success.

Just follow the directions and invest in the right tests to see lower nitrate and phosphate amounts so you don't over dose. I believe that's why people end up having bad affects. Also individual reef chemistry might play a role, won't know until you try.
 
I did the MB7, vodka, Zeolite, and VSV thing before I settled on just vinegar in the ATO. I was never happy with the others, but I'm happy with the vinegar. N and P are 0 (Salifert) and once I got the dosage adjusted I haven't had any bacterial blooms. Even when I overdosed the system in the beginning, I didn't get cyano or dinos like I got the other carbon sources. A bonus is that putting it in the ATO allows a little more kalk to dissolve in the water.
 
I currently do not read any Phosphates or Nitrates.... Multiple test kits all show 0.... I have bottle of vinegar and a bottle of vodka and was wondering which to use.

I really dont want to go through and have to buy a reactor for pellets... Let alone the pellets.

Only thing is I still grow hair algae in my frag tank where there is not much to eat it so I know there are lingering phosphates and stuff that I havent taken care of.... I was just going to start one method really slow... Looks like vinegar is winning out.
 
Personally, I'd start with vinegar and work from there if I was going to try carbon dosing, but each tank is different. Bio-pellets and vodka have been known to work well, as have a lot of commercial products.
 
Why not to dose both vinegar and vodka? Different carbon sources can't stimulate different bacterial species/strains and then amplify the bacterial diversity?
 
It's possible and even likely that dosing both vinegar and vodka will increase the bacterial diversity, but I wouldn't bother if the tank was doing fine with one carbon source.
 
Some people talk about bacterial diversity as if it is inherently a benefit. I’ve yet to hear anyone articulate a clear benefit from it, even a hypothetical one and even assuming it happens with multiple organic sources more than with a single source (which itself is just a hypothesis). :)
 
I don't believe "diversity" is a good or achievable thing. It may be the opposite with sugars or polymers for example.
I use vodka because it can be bolus dosed without the precipitous ph drops vinegar can cause .Also ,because I started with it and my tanks are doing well.. I use some vinegar too since it seems to abate cyano bacteria better than vodka.
 
Mock said:
What would be the choice... I have heard some nasty stuff about most everything but Vinegar....
Click to expand...

I agree and that is why I choose vinegar. Perhaps I would not use the word nasty though. ;)

The effect of a carbon source on bacteria is but one aspect of making a decision for what carbon source to use. Let's not forget about the effect on other organisms of interest like cyanobacteria, coral, the symbionts of coral, dinoflagellates and algae type pests.

I have found no research so far regarding the effect of ethanol on coral. Acetate seems to be utilized by coral and their symbionts. Is this good or bad. I have read no negative effects by hobbyists when dosing vinegar except when Randy found his limit for vinegar dosing which seemed to negatively effect his anemone. That was at a quite high dose of vinegar. On the other hand it seems from hobbyists posts that ethanol can adversely effect coral at much lower doses.

Hobbyists seem to report more problems with cyano from dosing vodka and the pellets. On the other hand vinegar does not seem to promote cyano growth by reports from many hobbyists. Scientific studies demonstrate that ethanol promotes cyano growth and acetate has no effect on their growth.

As far as the effect on bacteria, acetate seems to stimulate most bacterial types including aerobic and anaerobic which both are of benefit in a reef tank. At high enough levels acetate can have negative effects on anammox bacteria, but the level it takes of acetate is much higher than ethanol.

Ethanol seems to stimulate bacterial growth especially concerning the aerobic bacteria. At high levels ethanol can inhibit anammox bacteria, but not at levels that your typically dosed in a reef tank. Still this may be a concern depending on the volume that one doses ethanol in. If the ethanol is dosed in a smaller volume like a sump and then allowed to enter the tank, perhaps the levels in the sump may reach a high enough level to cause some problems. Vinegar (acetate) is much more forgiving in this respect. How ethanol actually effects the growth rate of annamox bacteria at lower levels is not clear to me from the research. It could increase the anammox growth rate at lower levels or perhaps have no effect at lower levels until the levels reach at point of inhibition.

As far as the effect that either have on other organisms I have found no research that helps. ;)

FWIW, thanks to Randy's help by providing some calculations, research found that there was 70% anammox inhibition when ethanol was dosed at 87 ml of ethanol in a 100 gallon water volume. The effect of ethanol at lower levels was not a linear correlation and was considered specie Dependant.
 
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I seem to remember reading that it is best to dose vodka/vinegar at a certain time of day due to the O2 consumption of the bacteria.

Can anyone elaborate on the best time?
 
I do know you should dose them during the day b/c of the O2 consumption... Dont think it matters what time of day....
 
By certain time I mean morning, midday, or night. I'm sure it also depends on individual photo periods as well.

Anybody else? I'd like to understand why. For example, it is best during the day because that's when photosynthetic organisms are most active which means they are producing 02 during this time, thereby counter balancing the 02 depletion of the bacteria.

Where is Randy when you need him. :)
 
Yes, dosing organic carbon is best during the day when O2 and pH are naturally highest. . All organic carbon dosing reduces O2 and pH, so dosing during the times of highest O2 and pH is my recommendation.

I dose vinegar and spread it out over 20 times doses during the daylight hours. :)
 
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