Can Eel's catch fish disease?

[Robka]

I have a Golden Dwarf Moray Eel in a tank with what was 3 Two Bar Chromis and 1 Starry Blenny. All that is left in the tank is one Chromis and my GDM eel. This is my quarantine tank, but I do not want to treat with anything that will harm the eel in any way. As much as I value life the eel cost $250 and the Chromis was $5. If the last fish dies will the disease remain with only a eel as a possible host?

Thanks for your help,

Robka

 

[Robka]

Also I believe the fish disease to be either Brooklynella or Ich. I would lean towards Brooklynella which I think would take any hypo-salinity treatment out of the equation?

 

[Sk8r]

Yes, they can catch ich. Unfortunately they are VERY sensitive to copper. The good news is that they have a very thick slime coat and are unlikely to come down with ich. I would continue to observe this fish.

When you say the others are gone---what did they die of, do you know?

If it comes down to treating the eel, first research on the internet. My first choice for treating a delicate fish would be hyposalinity. A google search says eels can tolerate hypo.
Hypo has a bad rep because it is often badly applied. If you are constrained by the appearance of ich spots to do hypo with this fish, get an ATO for that qt tank [cheaper than the eel] and use extra oxygenation, plus a potent pump, changing the filter floss daily.

 

[Sk8r]

Are you seeing a white film on the skin? This could be brook, or if with bloody lesions, it could be another sort: uronema marinum, which is also parasitic, and is treated the same as ich and brook. Hypo can work on either. Or on ich.
A formalin dip is possible, but has risks.
Copper is out.

 

[Robka]

Are you seeing a white film on the skin? This could be brook, or if with bloody lesions, it could be another sort: uronema marinum, which is also parasitic, and is treated the same as ich and brook. Hypo can work on either. Or on ich.
A formalin dip is possible, but has risks.
Copper is out.

When I said the fish were gone, I woke up to three dead bodies in the tank & the final non-eel fish not looking well. They had some white dots, but the cloudy eyes and white patches make me think it is Brook? The Eel seems fine at this point and if the eel can withstand the disease, I would rather make this an eel ONLY tank rather than risk killing him with any chemicals. Also, I thought Brook wasn't effected by hypo-salinity treatment?

Thanks again,

Robka

 

[syrinx]

Eels can harbor ich- but rarely will have issues from it. The only exception I can think of is the gobyoid "eels" and the ribbons. Does the eel appear ill? You said it was only the fish that were sick. If such is the case the thing to do is just keep a eye on the eel in the qt for 4 weeks and then go forward. As far as the chromis- I would find some one else to treat it- make a rubber maid qt for it- or destroy it. Hate to be frank- but I would do no treatments that were not absolutely needed when a eel is involved.

 

[syrinx]

wow concurent post!

 

[Robka]

Eels can harbor ich- but rarely will have issues from it. The only exception I can think of is the gobyoid "eels" and the ribbons. Does the eel appear ill? You said it was only the fish that were sick. If such is the case the thing to do is just keep a eye on the eel in the qt for 4 weeks and then go forward. As far as the chromis- I would find some one else to treat it- make a rubber maid qt for it- or destroy it. Hate to be frank- but I would do no treatments that were not absolutely needed when a eel is involved.

Yes the eel seems normal as usual no color changes or spots. He is hanging out in his favorite glass VOSS bottle as we speak. I don't think the Chromis would make it even if I found another person willing to treat him,so putting him out of his misery sounds like the best advice.

 

[Sk8r]

The white patches on the dead fish were probably just the start of decay.
Pity about them. I'd take your chromis if I were closer. But if you can put other fish with the eel ultimately for a 4 week qt and not have them come down with it, you can probably figure not only is he safe, everybody's safe, and you can put them all into your dt without fear. It takes 8 weeks to starve a parasitic infestation out of a tank, and changing the filter floss daily can help do that: any cysts that get into the floss go bye-bye. I use pillow stuffing [polyester] from the hobby store: they sell it in huge sacks for cheap. You can wrap a little carbon in it and use it in a bucket with a maxijet 1200 and get pretty good filtration. Continue to oxygenate.

 

[Robka]

The white patches on the dead fish were probably just the start of decay.
Pity about them. I'd take your chromis if I were closer. But if you can put other fish with the eel ultimately for a 4 week qt and not have them come down with it, you can probably figure not only is he safe, everybody's safe, and you can put them all into your dt without fear. It takes 8 weeks to starve a parasitic infestation out of a tank, and changing the filter floss daily can help do that: any cysts that get into the floss go bye-bye. I use pillow stuffing [polyester] from the hobby store: they sell it in huge sacks for cheap. You can wrap a little carbon in it and use it in a bucket with a maxijet 1200 and get pretty good filtration. Continue to oxygenate.

So you think I can kill the parasite off if I leave the eel only for 8 weeks and then try to add another fish to see if the parasite has truly died off? I've tried hypo in the past and did not have good luck, so naturally I am afraid to try it on my eel.

Thanks again for your help

 

[Robka]

Along this same subject, has anyone out there lost an eel to a fish disease or successfully treated and healed an eel?

 

[syrinx]

Oh yes I have healed many. Th best one was a funebris (green) moray that had bad head erosion- all the tissue was gone from the face to the dorsal. I had a system set up that for reasons unknown reversed lateral line- and this guy was perfect in a month. As far as more run of the mill stuff goes- the goby eels get ich big time- so I delt with that. Also eels often get bacterial infections from shipping bag burn. You really have to know what the infection is to deal properly- so I had a aquatic vet to assist with diagnosis. You might look into the university to see if there are such people available where you are. Other than that- just wounds and abrasion/infections from misadventure. All and all eels- once past shipping are pretty free of parasites and illness-not to say they can`t have issues-just much less than fish.

EDIT- I guess I should say- there are losses also of course- although other than escapees- most were shipping related. It is not uncommon to order in a moray and get 1.5- they are kept in vats and often eat one a little smaller and then barf them in the bag in shipping. Occasionally I have seen them go off food as well-don`t recall outcomes.

 

[Robka]

Oh yes I have healed many. Th best one was a funebris (green) moray that had bad head erosion- all the tissue was gone from the face to the dorsal. I had a system set up that for reasons unknown reversed lateral line- and this guy was perfect in a month. As far as more run of the mill stuff goes- the goby eels get ich big time- so I delt with that. Also eels often get bacterial infections from shipping bag burn. You really have to know what the infection is to deal properly- so I had a aquatic vet to assist with diagnosis. You might look into the university to see if there are such people available where you are. Other than that- just wounds and abrasion/infections from misadventure. All and all eels- once past shipping are pretty free of parasites and illness-not to say they can`t have issues-just much less than fish.

EDIT- I guess I should say- there are losses also of course- although other than escapees- most were shipping related. It is not uncommon to order in a moray and get 1.5- they are kept in vats and often eat one a little smaller and then barf them in the bag in shipping. Occasionally I have seen them go off food as well-don`t recall outcomes.

I have never seen a Goby Eel, is this a different species of eel? Have you ever seen GDM or snowflake Eel show signs of ich or Brook?

 

[syrinx]

no on the ich on a snowflake. If one in my care ever had it- it would have been in its gillls or mouth. Goby eels are often labeled wolf eels among other names.

 

[Sk8r]

TO do hypo effectively, note that an ATO in the hypo tank is going to be a big help. Every time you let the salinity swing a .001 of a point, you favor the parasite. If you have a correctly calibrated refractometer and an ATO, and know to start the 4 week count from the time you LAST saw evidence of ich, you're much more likely to have success. Daily changes of the filter medium mean that any ich encysted forms get thrown out, which also helps.

There is a not-too-common strain of marine ich that resists hypo, and that requires a different treatment, but even so, the hypo treatment should buy you time to figure out what you've got.

 

[Robka]

TO do hypo effectively, note that an ATO in the hypo tank is going to be a big help. Every time you let the salinity swing a .001 of a point, you favor the parasite. If you have a correctly calibrated refractometer and an ATO, and know to start the 4 week count from the time you LAST saw evidence of ich, you're much more likely to have success. Daily changes of the filter medium mean that any ich encysted forms get thrown out, which also helps.

There is a not-too-common strain of marine ich that resists hypo, and that requires a different treatment, but even so, the hypo treatment should buy you time to figure out what you've got.

I appreciate the info, but I am still afraid to try (& fail) hypo for the third time. I was wondering if you ever heard about this fact;

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has "˜worn itself out' and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.

I found this info on this link;

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

This could answer the question why people with Ich in their tank could find it doesn't return without treatment. I might just let the eel rule the tank for a year and then add treated fish to the tank and see what happens? I wish you could test the water without risking a fishes life, but I didn't see a MI test kit @ my LFS

 

[Robka]

no on the ich on a snowflake. If one in my care ever had it- it would have been in its gillls or mouth. Goby eels are often labeled wolf eels among other names.

OK, I have heard of a Wolf Eel before. They definitely seem like a different species of eel compared to my GDM or a Snowflake.

 

[Sk8r]

Both paragraphs are interesting: the article references Burgess and Matthews Cryptocaryon Irritans 1994:and states: "3. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months."

In other words, genetics would tend to pose a limit through inbreeding? Possibly its method of reproduction means the little telomeres get whacked off the end of its DNA as if it were aging because its reproduction produces a clone of itself? mmmm. Rack that one up as sk8r's own highly amateur guesswork, not actual and reportable fact. Sounds like something a researcher could do a paper over.

 

[syrinx]

I hold the belief- through no valid science- only experience- that ich does exactly that- to a point. Namely that after a period of time with healthy fish not allowing more than a occasion gill latch, the ich does not reproduce exponetially, rather the opposite. That there is a very low level of ich surviving to keep the genetics there for when there is the oportunity for a "bloom". This is not dissimilar to other animals that live in balance by breeding to the conditions available for survival. It explains why ich pops up in tanks that haven`t had fish added or any outbreaks in 5 yrs plus.

 

[Sk8r]

This is kind of an interesting idea---and a very limited genepool in the tank for something that has to reproduce within 2 months, and go on reproducing, with an increasing number of the fish developing some sort of resistance to their doing so---the same researcher, Burgess, has a paper indicating indeed there might be some resistance developed---would greatly diminish the number of hosts, while the gene pool was getting increasingly inbred, ergo more recessives coming out. And recessives are usually not the strongest traits to have. So---

Exactly what state of the art is now on the question I'm not sure, or whether Burgess is still at it--94 is a while ago. You'd think people would rush to research this ubiquitous pest, but money for grants goes where the money is, and this is a hobby.

Anyway, I've put out a query to some of our resident biologists to get their take on it, but one thing WOULD semi-logically follow from what Burgess is saying: namely that continually adding fish to your tank is reinforcing the gene pool of any ich in your tank.

There are two jokers in this deck: 1) some fish sources do their own quarantine, which leads some people into a false sense of security about not quarantining---and they'll get slammed the first time they buy from a non-safe source; and 2) some people who lose fish rush to replace them---again, without quarantining, sort of like that Roach Motel commercial: they check in but they don't check out. The dogged hobbyist sends in fish after fish after fish, and keeps losing them. MAYBE he's reinforcing the gene pool so well that he has really viable ich going on: a one year moratorium on new fish---easy for us old hands, but for a newbie over-excited and wanting to try every new fish short of a whale shark---disaster.

One might also suspect that the one place where, if no countermeasures are taken, ich strains could breed at will---is the local fish store.