Clipperton Angelfish? Legal or Illegal?

[Vili_Shark]

Correct. #1-2 are part of the public record.



What is this, a police interrogation? I plan on keeping myself anonymous. It's not really any of your business or relevant to the subject at hand.



My first post in the thread:
"All of them died within about 72 hours of landing due to very poor holding and shipping conditions."

Sorry Jazzman, you keep yourself anonymous, but at the same time don't make the agents at USFWL as saints.

The relevant info is:
1.They seized the fish, how many hours or days after they seized the fish did they ship them to the public aquarium?

2.How did they handle the fish during the hours/days the fish were with them? obviously they do not have an open system there do they?

I'm not, as per your previous posts , trying to make Steve the Clipperton Cowboy, he's surely not, but at the same time I find it VERY hard to believe that the USFWL agents were as good as you're trying to make them look.

I don't think John have a say here, John with all the respect is a hobbyist, he was not there.
He could surely help to save some fish in case he was there, but he was not.

If you were there, you can tell us about the handling.
Otherwise maybe Steve can chime in and give us some info as he was there.

Again, I'm not trying to make Steve a saint,and I'm not trying to blame the USFWL for killing these fish, if it's not Steve smuggling them none of this would have happened, but if you look at your own posts about how well the USFWL agents did in that incident :
" The USFWS agents in this case know what fish require, know how to take care of fish, and knew exactly how special these individual fish were. I can assure you that great steps were taken to keep these fish alive by a team of very capable people and all of those steps failed".

I just don't get how such amazing professional guys had 0% success if they did their very best and if they were as good as you say they are.

 

[jazzman7838]

What is this, a police interrogation? I plan on keeping myself anonymous. It's not really any of your business or relevant to the subject at hand.


:lolspin:

I do interrogate perps for a living, sometimes it is hard to shut off. I also have a low tolderance for BS. I mentioned in the previous post you could PM if you wanted to remain anonymous. I can assure you I wouldn't report you to the USFWS because of information you have provided on a 4 year old case that has since been resolved. You have continually chided others in the thread for their rampant speculations, and then expected us to just take you at your word without any credentials or actual proof. I apologize if you were offended.

No worries, my dad was in law enforcement so I recognize the tone. :idea: :lolspin: I apologize as well if anybody felt chided by my tone. I sat back for a long time and never commented on this topic.

I am not at all concerned about the USFWS seeing this thread, I'm sure they have moved on and have far greater things to worry about. These guys deal with seizing dried seahorses, tiger skins, elephant heads, you name it...a few rare angelfish are hardly even worth a story.

Anyway, my identity really is irrelevant to the topic. I fully understand that you can take my comments as just another speculative guy on the internet and there's really nothing I can do about that.

 

[the808state]

Im sorry for not clarifying - i didn't mean that they sat for three days as they decided what to do. I just re-read the post and i see how it was unclear. I do not know all the dirty details, and really dont care to be honest. It sucks that they couldn't save any - but what i did hear was they were in such bad condition by the time they arrived in the US that it was to late to save them. Poor handling happens when you are trying to hide what you're doing.

USFWS are by no means "saints". They are NOT however, malicious people. I deal with USFWS all the time and no most of them in HNL by name and know what sports they like etc. They are very understanding on certain situations and i'm sure there were a few of them pushing for the release of the fish. However, they have to abide by the laws put in place and the regulations without questions. Once you let one person get away with it, it starts to snowball. they are not bad people, they are merely doing their job according the Regulations put in place by the States and Federal Government.

they actually didn't have to try and find homes for them. I believe cold blooded animals fall into a different category than warm blooded as far as protocols go. (If i remember correctly), so they could have 'disposed' of them however they saw fit at the time - but they didn't. they tried to find homes for them. I think they handled the situation great, as there hands are tied as to what to do on a personal level.

What it comes down to is he smuggled them and got caught - he alone is responsible for the fish and their deaths.

 

[jazzman7838]

Sorry Jazzman, you keep yourself anonymous, but at the same time don't make the agents at USFWL as saints.

The relevant info is:
1.They seized the fish, how many hours or days after they seized the fish did they ship them to the public aquarium?

2.How did they handle the fish during the hours/days the fish were with them? obviously they do not have an open system there do they?

I'm not, as per your previous posts , trying to make Steve the Clipperton Cowboy, he's surely not, but at the same time I find it VERY hard to believe that the USFWL agents were as good as you're trying to make them look.

I don't think John have a say here, John with all the respect is a hobbyist, he was not there.
He could surely help to save some fish in case he was there, but he was not.

If you were there, you can tell us about the handling.
Otherwise maybe Steve can chime in and give us some info as he was there.

Again, I'm not trying to make Steve a saint,and I'm not trying to blame the USFWL for killing these fish, if it's not Steve smuggling them none of this would have happened, but if you look at your own posts about how well the USFWL agents did in that incident :
" The USFWS agents in this case know what fish require, know how to take care of fish, and knew exactly how special these individual fish were. I can assure you that great steps were taken to keep these fish alive by a team of very capable people and all of those steps failed".

I just don't get how such amazing professional guys had 0% success if they did their very best and if they were as good as you say they are.

To answer your questions:
1) ~50% of them were immediately taken to the USFWS office holding tank. The rest were taken to a public aquarium the same morning they landed. The next morning the fish from the office tank were moved to the public aquarium. The idea that any fish was in a bag for 3 days is utterly incorrect.

2) The fish were not with them for "days" (more speculation stated as fact). They held them in their tank for less than 24 hours. I can tell you that the conditions at the public aquarium were those in which you would expect any healthy fish to thrive. NH3 = 0, DO > 90%, etc.

If you want the intimate details of why these fish died, maybe you should ask Steve the details of how they got from Clipperton to Mexico, how long were they in Mexico, who took care of them, what were the conditions like in the live well on the boat, what are the credentials of the guys who took care of them, what do the holding systems in Mexico look like, how big were the bags they shipped them in, is it true that all the Clarions died too, etc.? Have you asked Steve any of these questions? That will explain a lot more about their deaths than I ever can.

 

[jazzman7838]

USFWS are by no means "saints". They are NOT however, malicious people. I deal with USFWS all the time and no most of them in HNL by name and know what sports they like etc. They are very understanding on certain situations and i'm sure there were a few of them pushing for the release of the fish. However, they have to abide by the laws put in place and the regulations without questions. Once you let one person get away with it, it starts to snowball. they are not bad people, they are merely doing their job according the Regulations put in place by the States and Federal Government.

Same here.

 

[therealjazzman]

I confirm everything that the other Jazzman has said about this issue.

 

[jazzman7838]

lol

 

[therealjazzman]

Indeed!

 

[Vili_Shark]

To answer your questions:
1) ~50% of them were immediately taken to the USFWS office holding tank. The rest were taken to a public aquarium the same morning they landed. The next morning the fish from the office tank were moved to the public aquarium. The idea that any fish was in a bag for 3 days is utterly incorrect.

2) The fish were not with them for "days" (more speculation stated as fact). They held them in their tank for less than 24 hours. I can tell you that the conditions at the public aquarium were those in which you would expect any healthy fish to thrive. NH3 = 0, DO > 90%, etc.

If you want the intimate details of why these fish died, maybe you should ask Steve the details of how they got from Clipperton to Mexico, how long were they in Mexico, who took care of them, what were the conditions like in the live well on the boat, what are the credentials of the guys who took care of them, what do the holding systems in Mexico look like, how big were the bags they shipped them in, is it true that all the Clarions died too, etc.? Have you asked Steve any of these questions? That will explain a lot more about their deaths than I ever can.

1.What is the reason behind splitting 50% to the public aquarium and 50% stays with USFWL?
By your answer, I can understand immediately means within couple of hours of seizing the fish 50% were already on the way to a public aquarium.
Correct?

2.Do not manipulate what I say, I wrote clearly Hours / Days.
Do not use only the days and make it like I was speculating and putting it as a fact,I was clearly not!
Since it seems you are either USFWL agent or somebody who is really close to them, I was expecting you to clarify the point and that's why I put hours/days.

3.Anybody who packed fish for long flights / long time packing knows things can go wrong, anybody who's been in this industry long enough had these kind of problems.
Myself I had shipments coming with 48 to 72hrs delay, which means 4 -5 days in a bag! even in those shipments I could save some fish!

I have never heard of 100% DOA, never ever!

Do not try to clear USFWL as anybody who's in the know importing and exporting fish will tell you 0% success rate saving a bad shipment is just not happening if proper handling and acclimation is given.
Somebody screwed up there.

I dont have to ask Steve, if he wants he can chime in, but if he is smart he wont as obviously USFWL are either participating in this thread or getting informed, so as somebody who's working with them , it wont be smart of him to make a mistake here.

 

[jazzman7838]

1.What is the reason behind splitting 50% to the public aquarium and 50% stays with USFWL?
By your answer, I can understand immediately means within couple of hours of seizing the fish 50% were already on the way to a public aquarium.
Correct?

You'd have to ask the USFWS agents why they made that decision. My best guess would be that the public aquarium was unable to immediately accept a surprise shipment of 52 large angelfish.

2.Do not manipulate what I say, I wrote clearly Hours / Days.
Do not use only the days and make it like I was speculating and putting it as a fact,I was clearly not!
Since it seems you are either USFWL agent or somebody who is really close to them, I was expecting you to clarify the point and that's why I put hours/days.

Is there a question here?

3.Anybody who packed fish for long flights / long time packing knows things can go wrong, anybody who's been in this industry long enough had these kind of problems.
Myself I had shipments coming with 48 to 72hrs delay, which means 4 -5 days in a bag! even in those shipments I could save some fish!

I have never heard of 100% DOA, never ever!

Me neither, but they weren't DOA.

Do not try to clear USFWL as anybody who's in the know importing and exporting fish will tell you

I'm sorry, but you don't actually live in the US, right? So you have 0% actual experience with USFWS? Is this correct?

0% success rate saving a bad shipment is just not happening if proper handling and acclimation is given.
Somebody screwed up there.

Yeah, I know. Proper handling wasn't given prior to them landing in the US. By Steve Robinson and/or his associates.

By the way, I remember a thread from many years ago where you and your friends were unpacking nice angelfish and holding them in your hands out of water, up to your face, and posing with them for the cameras. Certainly not something I would do to an angelfish that had just gone through the stress of shipping just to get a funny picture, but to each his own.

I dont have to ask Steve, if he wants he can chime in, but if he is smart he wont as obviously USFWL are either participating in this thread or getting informed, so as somebody who's working with them , it wont be smart of him to make a mistake here.

More speculation masquerading as fact. Please stop doing it.

It is really clear you don't know any of the details of this case at all. I've given you all the details I feel like giving, it's clear I can't satisfy you by answering more questions. I'd suggest you email or call the relevant USFWS office and confirm all this, but I'm sure they have better things to do than rehash resolved cases from several years ago. They are understaffed and overworked.

 

[therealjazzman]

I have never heard of 100% DOA, never ever!

Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but you haven't heard about them because when they happen no one talks about them because they make everyone look bad - and you won't get replacement stock if you talk about how bad a shipment was.

 

[acesq]

Jazzman (the real one, not "therealjazzman" lol), I admire your patience with this thread. I'm reading now only for the entertainment value, there is nothing more to learn.

The dude who smuggled the fish is directly and solely responsible for their deaths. And for the black eye our hobby took as a result. He got off easy in my book. There is no reason to hate on USFWL.

 

[Blue Ring Sting]

Not ever 100% DOA but RT Distributors almost made it happen. Sometimes just poor handling and collecting methods make shipping so much harder on the fish. I have never seen such poor packaging in my life and worst of all he is not interested to hear about any DOA's.

Total loss was 20 Flames, 10 Yellows, 1 Achilles, 2 Nasos, 1 Lemonpeel and 2 Cleaner Wrasse. At the end of the day not everyone appreciates a fishes life and sometimes it is only seen as a item to make money on.

 

[Blue Ring Sting]

At the end of the day the Clippertons should not of been removed, if Steve never removed them there would be no problems.

 

[jazzman7838]

At the end of the day the Clippertons should not of been removed, if Steve never removed them there would be no problems.

Absolutely.

It's a completely sad story because it has probably poisoned the well for any future possibilities of collecting there. Like Steve has said the angelfish is locally very abundant there and it doesn't seem harmful at all to harvest a few off the island. It just should have been done legally.

 

[Vili_Shark]

You'd have to ask the USFWS agents why they made that decision. My best guess would be that the public aquarium was unable to immediately accept a surprise shipment of 52 large angelfish.



Is there a question here?



Me neither, but they weren't DOA.



I'm sorry, but you don't actually live in the US, right? So you have 0% actual experience with USFWS? Is this correct?



Yeah, I know. Proper handling wasn't given prior to them landing in the US. By Steve Robinson and/or his associates.

By the way, I remember a thread from many years ago where you and your friends were unpacking nice angelfish and holding them in your hands out of water, up to your face, and posing with them for the cameras. Certainly not something I would do to an angelfish that had just gone through the stress of shipping just to get a funny picture, but to each his own.



More speculation masquerading as fact. Please stop doing it.

It is really clear you don't know any of the details of this case at all. I've given you all the details I feel like giving, it's clear I can't satisfy you by answering more questions. I'd suggest you email or call the relevant USFWS office and confirm all this, but I'm sure they have better things to do than rehash resolved cases from several years ago. They are understaffed and overworked.

A public aquarium do not have a room in their back tanks for 52pcs of fish.
Are you serious?
You just made me laugh.
And you are not answering the question, even though in previous posts you said to ask a question and you will answer, that was not a tough question to answer , was it? you mentioned 50% of the fish sent immediately , then when i asked you within a couple of hours, you said i will have to ask them.

No, I do not live in the US and I'm VERY happy to say I'm do not have to deal with the USFWL, pardon me, but what it got to do with the thread?you're the one who's saying the USFWL were the saints who did whatever possible, and took great steps to save these fish, and I say NO.
Do you have to live in America for that?

You continue saying that Steve didnt give them proper handling.
Steve did try to smuggle these fish, that's a fact nobody's arguing here, at the same time Steve handled tens of thousands of fish, dont you find it a little odd that 0% survival rate on these particular fish (???).

Woow, congratulations, I feel honored you been looking through all my posts, I tell you what, I'm not even bothered to look through yours, you're not interesting me at all.

I'm also not really bothered to e mail the USFWL, what answer would I get?
"Yes sir, we did take our time and somebody screwed up with these fish, we are sorry for that, but we did catch Steve Robinson!" I mean seriously, what answer would I get if somebody screwed up there.
Again, 0% out of 52fish, sorry I can not accept this even if the fish arrived in a very bad condition , you can tell that to your USFWL friends :lol:

 

[Vili_Shark]

Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but you haven't heard about them because when they happen no one talks about them because they make everyone look bad - and you won't get replacement stock if you talk about how bad a shipment was.

One side who got screwed up should talk about them quite a lot dont you think?

 

[Vili_Shark]

At the end of the day the Clippertons should not of been removed, if Steve never removed them there would be no problems.

I'm not arguing about this at all, this is a very clear point that everybody agrees on.

My argument is IF USFWL service did give the fish they seized the proper handling after seizing them.

 

[Blue Ring Sting]

That I can agree on as well, I have had dealings with the FWS guys in JFK and in LAX. Sometimes I get my boxes in great condition other times the goods are packed upside down and is a complete mess.

 

[jazzman7838]

A public aquarium do not have a room in their back tanks for 52pcs of fish.
Are you serious?
You just made me laugh.

Yeah, I'm laughing too. Public aquariums have to QUARANTINE the fish and they generally don't have tons of quarantine tanks laying around waiting for surprise shipments of 50 large angelfish. But don't take my word for it, call up any aquarium and ask them if they have 1000-2000 gallons of QT space cycled and ready to go but for some reason have no fish in it.

There is a lot you are clueless about. Quit while you're ahead.