Closed loop circulation? Why/Why not?

[REEFFER MADNESS]

I'm picking up my new 90 Gal glass box tonight and transfering all the stuff from my 55 Gal when I'm done researching everything to make MY utilimate reef aquarium. Yes the days of HOB stuff are OVER!! This tank will be drilled by yours truley.

Why have I been hearing that the days of closed loop systems are over. These systems seem great to me. When the power goes out there is no problem. They are used in pools and spas all the time and work great (I'm a contractor).

I'm planning on incorporating a closed loop system (1200 to 1500 gph) into my 90 Gal. (with a SCWD or Ocean Motion) and a seperate system for filtration (700 gph).

So ? Closed Loop Circulation Pro's and Con's?
Bring It.

Love to see photo's of your aquarium plumbing.

Regards

 

[REEFFER MADNESS]

bump?

 

[billsreef]

Who's telling you the days of closed loops are over? It's a great way of increasing circulation without use of obtrusive powerheads in the tank.

 

[REEFFER MADNESS]

I agree, but so far the top five reasons not to have a closed loop system are:

1) cleaning the pump and the ocean motion device when debris get into the system.

2)The amount of holes you would have to drill through the back/sides of your tank. As a result, poosible leaks or breakage down the road and water on the floor depending on how low the holes are drilled of course.

3) The cost of the system itself $250.00 for a dart pump or =, oceans motions set-up $280.00+, and all the plumbing involved around $250.00 depending on how many gate valves and unions you use.

4) The general labor involved in planning and plumbing the systems itself.

5)After time the lines get clogged and flow is lost.

The Vortech controlable wave maker was recommended.

I myself am still on the fence.

 

[billsreef]

1) cleaning the pump and the ocean motion device when debris get into the system.

You face the same issues with any other method of circulation, in fact you can actually magnify those issues by using multiple pumps (powerheads) instead of just one for a closed loop

The amount of holes you would have to drill through the back/sides of your tank. As a result, poosible leaks or breakage down the road and water on the floor depending on how low the holes are drilled of course.

If the holes are properly done, the bulkheads properly sized and installed, that is not a problem. If one is going to worry that much, you also need to do away with the whole overflow drain, sump and return plumbing

3) The cost of the system itself $250.00 for a dart pump or =, oceans motions set-up $280.00+, and all the plumbing involved around $250.00 depending on how many gate valves and unions you use.

Unless your over thinking and over complicating the closed loop design, costs will be about the same to provide comparable circulation.

4) The general labor involved in planning and plumbing the systems itself.

This does indeed involve more planning and some decent plumbing skills. However, providing one has the plumbing skills, it's just not an issue that I would even consider as a negative, just a part of the process.

5)After time the lines get clogged and flow is lost.

Nothing is maintenance free. A little time spent on the planning end, and you can make the maintenance easy

Hope this helps in your quest

 

[REEFFER MADNESS]

I agree and thanks for your input. Just the design of a closed loop system make total sense for optimal tank circulation.

I have seen the Vortech wave maker and it is also very impressive as far as it versitility.

Thanks again

 

[GACDIVER]

BillsReef, I concure with every point you made!

 

[username in use]

+1 for all of bills answers

 

[cj hill]

my new tank already had the hole drilled so i just went with the closed loop and i can say that i i ever upgrade it will have one or two closed loops on it i am sold

 

[oldsaltman]

My 55g has four powerheads and a "U" for the overflow. I have been planing my 90g upgrade for several months. My new tank is now up and running with a closed loop and no "U" tube. Yes I have eleven holes in my tank, but I would never go back to powerheads and "U" tubes. I love the look of the tank when all my planning and plumbing came together. No leaks, no problems just a lot of planning and hard work to get it working right.

 

[LockeOak]

This is anecdotal, but is the energy efficiency of most closed loop systems comparable to roughly the same amount of circulation from powerheads? I've never run a closed loop.

 

[power boat jim]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14700694#post14700694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LockeOak
This is anecdotal, but is the energy efficiency of most closed loop systems comparable to roughly the same amount of circulation from powerheads? I've never run a closed loop.

Thats a tough one, I run a single barracuda pump on my set up. It puts next to no heat into the system since the motor sits on the basement floor. If you run multple heads in the tank they will add a bunch more heat, maybe enough to make a chiller necessary. There are probably many more variables that could work in one or the others favor depending on the equipment you use.

I like the closed loop for its versitility and cleaner look. Powerheads can cast a shadow over some areas of the tank.

some power heads cant be hooked to a wave maker or timer while just about all pumps used in a closed loop can be cycled on/off at will.

 

[psteeleb]

I run both a closed loop and power heads

the main advantage I see with the closed loop is being able to determine where you pull the water from - so in a sense you get pulled circulation and pushed circulation, second is the pump is hidden

I have to clean the power heads 4 times as often the the closed loop pump

 

[LoneRegister]

The failure mode for a closed loop system is your tank on the floor.

The failure mode for an overflow system - is 2-5% of your tank on the floor.

 

[power boat jim]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14709511#post14709511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LoneRegister
The failure mode for a closed loop system is your tank on the floor.

The failure mode for an overflow system - is 2-5% of your tank on the floor.

Thats not true, I use all 4 drains in my overflows to feed the system and use a free standing return system of pvc to put the water back in.

Also, by definition, closed loop means water goes from the tank to a pump and back to the tank. There is no sump in between to overflow or siphon the water out when the pump shuts off. Unless you are talking about a pipe coming off or some sort of bulkhead fitting failure (both nearly impossible if installed correctly) a closed loop system will not result in loss of the entire tank contents no matter how its set up.

Even in a tank drilled with several holes in the back or side glass, you can install stand pipes to draw water from a level near the top to prevent the loss of all water if you are worried about such a thing.

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14709511#post14709511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LoneRegister
The failure mode for a closed loop system is your tank on the floor.

The failure mode for an overflow system - is 2-5% of your tank on the floor.

Depending on where the overflow fails, it could be 100% on the floor also. There comes a point where one worries too much, even the tank itself can fail. So if your going to worry that much, better of just visiting someone elses tank.

 

[ctripi]

I'm in favor of CL's. With loc-lines for outputs, you'll be constantly adjusting the direction of the flow until you acheive an ideal flow pattern. It took me the better half of 1 years till I stopped tinkering. I really enjoy my Dart/OceanMotion combo.

My only beef with Vortechs are that they are not adjustable. They just point in one direction and cost $400. Not very adaptable IMO.

 

[jh2pizza]

I have a 180 with a Dart CL returning through the bottom of the tank with 4-1.5" returns. I also have two Sea Swirls 1" for the return from a Hammerhead in the basement. I have more random flow than I would ever need and I do not have large power heads in the tank to look at.
If I had to do it all over, I would still go with a CL. Just make sure you do not skimp on the bulk heads. Use Schedule 80 and You will never regret spending the extra cash.

 

[REEFFER MADNESS]

regarding the vortech eco, it may just point in one direction but from what I've seen the "surging" motion carries throughout the tank and there are no dead spots that I have seen. It seams to simulate the flow of a reef very well.

Is there an issue of using a closed loop in conjunction with a vortech or similar power head or would this create a toilet bowl effect? Too many currents flowing in different directions. Good exercise for the fish.

I'm trying to come up with the best system and make my mistakes on paper. Will a closed loop system with one intake and four returns, with all the returns putting out close to constant equal pressure be sufficient or do the returns need to flow at different surge rates as with the Ocean Motion unit?

 

[REEFFER MADNESS]

bump