Copperband Butterfly Primer

I have had a cbb in quarantine for almost a week now. He agressively eats frozen brine shrimp and blood worms. He picks at or takes in and spits out some other foods. Can he get addequate nutrition from blood worms and brine shrimp? I have supplemented with tube worms from my fuge, but that supply won't last. He hasn't shown any interest in aptasia yet. So mostly just frozen brine shrimp and frozen blood worms.

Also, he sometimes twitches almost like he has something stuck in his throat. I have observed this behavior in other cbb's too. Is this normal, or should I be aware of a potential problem. In case it matters, he spent about two weeks in a tank with copper and 1.020 s.g. I have been gradually increasing the s.g. (no copper), and I am at about 1.0235 or so now. I have also been fighting ammonia. It is usally about .25 ppm, but has gotten as high as .5 ppm. Thanks for any help.
 
^Sounds like flukes. They often shake around from the irritation caused by the flukes. Also there really shouldn't be any ammonia in QT. Just adds a lot more stress to an already stressed highly sensitive animal. Good luck though. :)
 
Eldredge,

You have some issues besides his diet at the moment.

I would have to say 99.9% of fish coming from wholesalers, as well as some LFS, have been exposed to copper. They run this through their systems as a preventative measure.

As for the ammonia, you may have to keep up with water changes to keep this number low. I always tell friends, those that QT that is, that your QT should only be as big as you are willing to do 95% water changes, 3-4 times a week. This really is the only way you're going to control the amount of ammonia. We throw a lot of nutrients into a QT, especially with fish that don't eat, and the breakdown really spikes NH3 QUICKLY. I toss a few bio balls into my sump below my 65g a few weeks before I think I'm going to order another fish, and then place those in the aqua clear HOB I have running on the QT--I toss them out once I break down the QT. Does this work? I don't know, but I believe it helps. I prefer a 10g, but that's just me, and it also is dependent on the fish as well.

The shaking is inline with a lot of CBB new arrivals, and usually means parasites/flukes. If it continues, he'll most likely try scraping on anything in the tank. He could be a candidate for a fresh water dip--I only did this with my first CBB who didn't make it out of QT, so I really can't recommend it at the moment. Maybe someone else can give better advice regarding this.

As for the food: all I can recommend is soaking what he currently likes in Selcon. I'd rather have my daughter eat turkey and brocholli for dinner, but if forced mac n cheese with a childrens vitamin is a close second! You know what I mean?

Good luck, keep us informed.
 
I tried a freshwater dip on my CBB. It killed the flukes but the fish died 3 days later, so I cant really say that it was a successful treatment. It may have died from the stress of the flukes and the stress of the freshwater dip as I didn't know he had flukes until I had him a couple of weeks.

I saw some other CBBs at my LFS and they too looked like they had flukes. Why is this so common? What is the best treatment? I try to pick healthy fish but sometimes symptoms don't manifest until later, when the fish is home. I am waiting to try another CBB until I find a good cure for flukes in case the new one has the same problem. if any one has a cure or successful experience post it here please.
 
Thanks for the help. I was worried that it might be flukes. The thing that makes me wonder though is that he always goes to the front left side of the tank (20 gal), right against the glass when he does this. He almost acts aggressively like he is attacking something. He didn't do this at the fish store or for the first few days that I had him. So, I wondered if it might be a behavioral thing. I guess I will read up on flukes.

As far as the ammonia goes. I have been checking it a few times a day. I started the tank with water from my display, and a bag of ceramic media that I had in my sump for several weeks. It is in a HOT filter with a sponge and some charcoal. I also put in a couple of large sponges and containers of ceramic media that I had taken out of an old fluval filter and kept in the sump for several months. I thought this would provide some biological filtration, and I think it might be starting. I haven't done a water change for 48 hours and the ammonia has been stable and might be slowly dropping - it is at .25 right now. I am actually not a huge fan of large water changes if they can be avoided. Hopefully with a small water change to siphon out food etc it will drop to zero - I will keep watching it closely.

Anyway, thanks for the help. I was so happy to have him eating and looking so good. I hope he will be okay. I had one once before that did great until he ran out of tube worms and aptasia. I never could get him to eat anything else, and I hated to see him die after a few months. That's the only fish I have lost so far.

If anyone else has any thoughts, I would appreciate the input. Thanks again.
 
The shaking is inline with a lot of CBB new arrivals, and usually means parasites/flukes. If it continues, he'll most likely try scraping on anything in the tank.
Click to expand...

Yes he has. It looks worse with a copperband because of their long snout which moves back and forth fast. This can be eventually fatal to a CBB or any fish. It depends on many conditions but IMO stressing a fish as it will be in a bare quarantine tank is about as stressed as it can get. Constantly changing the water with new ASW is another big stressor.
Fish often become free of these paracites on their own if given the proper diet and are in an established tank.
A diet for CBBs is not brine shrimp and blood worms which are not worms at all. They are beetle larvae and it is doubtful they would have the proper nutrition for that type of fish. The "worm" looking case on a bloodworm is not even dijestible (I don't think)
They need and really thrive on real worms. Live saltwater worms are the best food but unfortunately unavailable so live blackworms are next. I understand they are not available in many parts of the country (very common in any pet shop in NY) You can also try freeze dried tubifex. I am not that crazy about these but I think they would be better than bloodworms.
You need to take a cube of freeze dried tubifex and squeeze it underwater or it floats like saw dust.
Blackworms are by far the best food for this fish and I would not keep a CBB without it.
Good luck
 
Thanks Paul. I have looked for blackworms, and they are not available locally. I may have to consider ordering some and breeding them. I will try the tubifex. He does "taste" other foods, so maybe he will start taking some other things.

I agree with you about the stress, and have been trying to limit water changes. One of the reasons I quarantined him was that the water he came from was much lower in salinity than mine. I matched the quarantine to what he was in, and have been rasing it. I have it up to about 33, and I keep my display at 35 (refractometer). Maybe I should consider moving him pretty soon? Assuming that he has flukes, would these spread to the other fish?

The ammonia is now below .25, and seems to be dropping without water changes. So, I think it would be safe to leave him in the quarantine tank if that would be best for everyone. He does have a place to hide, but certainly not like in the display.

Thanks again for the help. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
 
if any one has a cure or successful experience post it here please.
Click to expand...

If the fish is just shaking and not breathing hard or crashing into the glass it is most likely flukes which are gill paracites but not ich.
The two diseases are treated differently.
Flukes often go away by themselves but you could clean the fish of them fairly easily if you can get the medications.
You can prepare a bath of 1cc of formaldehyde to one gallon of seawater. Airate this for 24 hours to drive out some of the alcohol that is present in most formaldehyde batches.
Put the fish in the bath for 15 to 30 minutes if it does not show stress. Of course if the fish lays on the bottom or goes nuts, remove him.
Put the fish back in quarantine and if you can get it you need quanicrine hydrocloride 10 mg/gal.
Put in half the medication and the other half in about 10 hours.
On the third day put the fish back in the formaldehyde for 20 minutes and he should be cured.

I have used quinicrine hydrocloride in conjunction with copper to cure ick and that formula will work on ich in about 24 hours. For flukes you should use the formaldehyde.
Of course you coule just leave the thing alone and hope he gets cured on his own.
I don't make these things up (except the copper/ quinicrine one thats mine)
Quinicrine is a malaria medication and is a prescription drug not available in pet shops. A Dr. can give you a prescription or a Vet.
 
Fish become stressed with large water changes when pH, salinity, and temp are not matched. Nothing more.

Sounds like the formaldehyde bath would be more stressfull than water changes.

I still think your main concern is the ammonia.

I agree with Paul, and would recommend doing nothing except getting him to continuosly eat something. First rule of medicine I hear is "do no harm." If it gets worse you may have to be a little more proactive in its treatment.
 
Thanks again for the help. His appetite is quite good. He hunts down the blood worms and artemia quickly and takes them right down. The other foods I offer he picks at and spits out and tries again etc. I have been hesitant to offer too much that he doesn't eat immediately because of the ammonia issue. I am feeding him five or six times a day, and he attacks the food (that he likes) each time.

The ammonia seems to be getting closer to zero than .25, and I haven't done any more water changes. I think I will change 1-2 gallons today and siphon out everything I can. Hopefully it will be to zero tomorrow. I am using water from my main tank for top-off (until I get the salinity up) and water changes.

I appreciate the advice. He isn't rubbing against anything and doesn't seem to be breathing hard. I think I will keep feeding and observing and trying to improve the water. If he gets worse, I will consider more drastic action.

Thanks for the help, and I am still interested in any other thoughts. I really hope to not lose him.
 
sickness

sickness

has anyone ever had ick problems? i am just wondering.... also if you dont mind, could you post your water perams. thanks!
 
I have had ich on other fish besides the copperbands, specifically my yellow tang which lives in my 55g frag tank. I have not fought it with CBBs, however, PaulB described above his treatment for it (although I'm not sure if he was documenting it with a copperband, though).

My Levels run around:
Salinity: 1.025; +/- .001
Alk: 9/9.5 dKH
Ca: 400/420
pH: I tend not to check pH too often, but manage to ALK/CA instead. When I do it ranges between 8.0--8.3 degrees (taken usually when the full lights are on)
NO3: 0
P04: 0 (however, I have some minor algae issues from time-to-time so I know this cannot be true. I believe it is elevated P04 and not N03)
Temp:76-78 degrees (I run my tanks below "acceptable" levels......probably would make for a healthy "discussion" if this ever got out, so ssssshhhhhhh don't tell anyone :rolleyes:
 
PaulB described above his treatment for it (although I'm not sure if he was documenting it with a copperband, though).
Click to expand...

Actually I was talking about flukes on this thread.
Ich would be copper and if you could get it, quinicrine hydrocloride in conjunction with copper.
There is nothing better or faster.
I have used it dozens of times
 
I have a CBB that starts the shake dance when he is hungry and wants to gain my attention. He is not infected with anything and I have had him for 2.5 years now. Lives in a 55.

My 125 is about 8 months into it's life and about 3.5 weeks ago I introduced a pair of CBB at the same time. Getting the yellow tang to accept them was the most difficult part. Eating was not. They also like to face the front of the tank and dance as well as dart back and forth until I feed them. A mirror will distract them from this activity. Not saying that you don't have an infection of some sort but part of it could be behaviour.
 
i dont own a CBB, actually, i was just wondering if anyone had ick problems... because ive read they get it easily, as do tangs and angels. (more than say wrasses)
 
Yes, you would be correct. Butterflys and Tangs will acquire ick at a faster rate than wrasses, given sub-optimal conditions........but really in optimal conditions there are very few hobby level fish which can't enjoy an above average life span.
 
Can I add a CBB: here is what I have
180g tank (Has some Glass Anemone and tons of Pods)
Mixed reef with all the Families of corals
Blonde Naso 4inch
Sailfin Tang 3inch
Cleaner Shrimp
Clown Fish with 10inch Anemone
Lawnmower Blenny

Thanks
Brooks
 
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