Copperband Butterfly Primer

[Paul B]

It is our fault that fish die prematurely in our tanks.
The fish I am sure wants to live but if we don't feed it what it is supposed to eat or house it in a tank that simulates it's habitat in the sea and has relitively similar water parameters.
How mayn people on here have moorish Idols and are thrilled because they eat clams and flakes, two foods Idols do not eat in the sea. Get a good book and find out what these animals eat and don't get it if you can't take care of it. I don't have problems with copperbands but I have followed them in the sea and learned they eat worms. They will eat all sorts of things but their system was designed to have some worms. I have also followed moorish Idols, they eat sponge, I have never seen them eat anything else on the reefs. They are another fish that will eat anything but if all they eat is sponge, they probably need it.
We also put herbifores in tanks devoid of algae. A vegetable diet contains very little nutrition which is the reason they graze all day non stop. They will eat mysis, flakes, brine shrimp etc but they need algae. Of course they can live a few years on the wrong diet, so can we, but those fish should live almost 20 years.
Too many fish we are slowly starving even though they seem fat.
If we ate chocolate chip cookies every day we would also be fat, but I doubt we will live long.
Anyway back to copperbands. They have small mouths and need to eat a few times a day. They should have some worms in their diet preferably every day, I feed live black worms to them every day for at least one meal. Worms are very high in vitamin A.
Copperbabds seem to need this as many fish do.
The diet of most reef fish is whole baby fish which are very numerous on a healthy reef. If you dive in the tropics and you just lay on the bottom for a while you will notice thousands of tiny fish. These form the food chain for almost all fish.
Not pieces of shrimp, clam and squid but whole fish. The reason for that is because vitamin A along with Omega oils are stored in the liver. Some fishes liver is a quarter of it's weight. There is very little vitamin A in the muscle of fish, squid or clam.

 

[DJBoy98]

Great info!

I guess I'm stucking going to the LFS every couple of weeks for live black worms. Just about everyone eats those buggers in my tank.

 

[Paul B]

They are the best food their is, just don't feed only that or your fish will want nothing else. Feed them something else first.

 

[Brandon M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14430378#post14430378 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Laddy
Brandon, where did you get the CBB?

I got my Copperband from a fellow reefer who's tank was getting too small for her.

 

[discusone]

Paul B,

How do we know "fish live for 20 years"?. I'm not arguing with you,just how do the ocean biologists know that a CBB,or any ornamental fish lives that long?Has any body done a tagging on butterflyfish,or dwarf angels?Then recovered the same fish 20 years later?

 

[Paul B]

I really guessed on the copperband but I know I have had fish for 18 years and clowns and puffers for 12. I also know some people had clowns for over 18 years. Larger fish should live longer than that.
Freshwater carp can live 40 years.

 

[discusone]

So,if you and people you have known,have kept clowns and puffers for over 12/18 years,then apparently the fish were getting the proper nutriction from the offered foods?And that food was most likely ,not the food found in nature.
Yes indeed,there are koi that have outlived their owners,and the storys of koi in Japan that were 200 years old,supposedly.
But,the keeper of a dwarf angel/large angel,or a butterfly,or a tang,who keeps that fish alive for several years,i.e.2 to 3 say,may have indeed supplied the proper nutrition,through,clams,sqiud, and whatever else,and that particular fish may have lived out its natural life in the tank.Maybe longer,given that it did not have to worry about a hungry grouper,or snapper.

I have yet to see any scientific data on the lifespan of ornamental reef fish.And to clarify,i am referring to the fish we would normally keep in our reef tanks.

 

[Paul B]

Discusone I have kept a couple of hippo tangs over ten years and a french angel over ten years also. My fire clown which I still have is over 15. I usually lose them in an accident after that time. My 18 year old brutilyd died in an accident as did my old french angel and one of my 10 year old hippos. They most likely would have lived much longer.
2 or 3 years old with any fish besides a seahorse is terrible and I would consider it a total failure.
Even clown gobies live longer than that.
My fish do get the proper food, not just clams and squid which by the way is not the proper food but I also collect tiny fish and live shrimp in the sea, to feed them. I collected plenty of fresh sponge to feed my 5 year old moorish Idol that died in the same accident as that hippo and brutlyd fish.
Many of my hermit crabs are over ten years old
Fireclown

This hermit and another one are ten years old

 

[discusone]

Paul B,

I have no doubt about your ability with marine systems.You are certainly well respected here on RC.
Oh,if only we all could live by the sea.But,since some of us are doomed to living inland,we do the best we can,with what is available.
However,many of us,are proud of the fact that we have a 3 year old tang,or that CBB is going on 1.5 years.Many of us,inland,spend a large amount of time and effort on our tanks,and while we cant take a morning stroll down to the beach,and grab some sponges/babyfish,for the tanks morning feeding,we are still as concerned as you seem to be with the idea of getting the proper nutrition to our fish.
Ill end this by saying,experts like yourself,may want to chose your words carefully when trying to relay concerns.Saying,and im paraphrasing here,that feeding clams,sqiud,and what is available to us is dooming our efforts to failure,can be discouraging to many starting out in our hobby.My best to you.

 

[Paul B]

I am not trying to doom your efforts and for 8 months out of the year I also can't go down to the sea to collect anything. It is 20 degrees here now and the sea is covered in ice. But I do go to Asian markets to buy tiny fish for food and although squid and clams are not ideal foods, I also have to feed them.
Clams are great as long as you get the clam guts in there also.
Also, I am no where an expert, there are no experts in this as it is just a hobby. The only fish I fed sponge to was a moorish idol.
I also feed worms which I buy and can't collect.
You can be proud if you can keep a copperband butterfly for a year and a half but that fish lives much longer than that. It eats worms. Thats what it eats in the sea and thats what you should feed it. If you can't get worms, then you may not be able to keep one more than a year and a half.
If you look at some of the tank pictures on RC you will see some really beautiful systems, much nicer looking than mine and if you investigate, you will find some fairly old fish.
Many people on here are breeding clowns, mandarins, seahorses, and bangai cardinals. Those fish that are breeding are in the best health they can be and will live many years.
My hippo tang normally eats nori seaweed easily found in Asian markets or pet shops and mysis found anywhere.
I have the same access to clams and fresh seafood in a seafood market as you. I was stationed in Denver for 6 months and I know there are fish markets there.
You also have a much larger tank than I do. You have no pictures but I bet it is also beautiful.
I am just saying that a fish that I know can live at least 10 years should live longer than 2. There is something wrong there and it may not even be food.
My tank is run with a reverse UG filter. I think that is the greatest invention this hobby has ever seen, I am probably the only one on here with one. It is also the cheapest, easily available system.
I have been telling people about them for years and most people just laugh. It also keeps my fish alive.

I have spent my entire life studying the sea and I have been diving for the last 40 years. Thats why my fish live long. Not just the food I give them although I am sure that helps.
I am sure the cod liver oil I give them helps also. (available in Denver) I do collect bacteria from the sea and NSW which is one thing I agree with you is hard to do in Denver. I can't help you with that, unless you would like me to send you some in the summer.

 

[jedheuer]

Has anyone had experience freezing live black worms? I ask because I don't see them on the market so I am wondering if there is a reason for it or they are simply not available frozen. If live black worms are the best food for copper bands I would assume that frozen blackworms would be a close second. Ideally I would like to buy like half a pound, feed half of that live and freeze the rest. This is also assuming the copper band will accept them after they have been frozen. Anyone try this before?

 

[Paul B]

I have not heard of them frozen but I know they freeze dry them. I don't know how good they are but my fish will eat them.
Live blackworms come from California so I would assume your LFS could order them or you could get them on line from many places. Maybe you could order a pound and split them with a few people. I can keep them alive for a couple of weeks in some shallow circulating water.
You can also freeze earthworms and break them into small pieces, they are just as healthy as blackworms, if you could get your fish to eat them.
The healthy part of worms is the oils they contain.

 

[Paul B]

Copperbands are not like a lot of other fish, each one has a seperate personality and some will eat one item while others will eat nothing offered. Of course they did eat something as they were eating in the sea but we may not be able to provide that food. These fish in particular should not be bought if you don't see it eat in the store. I personally don't buy any fish I don't see eat in the store and if the store owner will not feed it, or says it just ate, it stays in the store.
I know some people buy these fish on line. I don't think that is a good Idea with copperbands.
They are a delicate fish which even under the best conditions don't live in a tank as many years as many other fish.
Butterflies in general do not live in tanks as long as many fish and they need special care.
The main problem with them is that are discriminate feeders and if you dive with them you will see them poking their head in holes in the rock all day picking out tiny worms. They have a very small mouth with very weak jaws and tiny (if any ) teeth.
Their food is so small and they find so little of it that they need to feed like this all day. We tend to feed them once a day and wonder why they lose weight. Them and all fish with similar feeding habits should be fed at least twice a day, three would be better but we also have lives. I believe, like I do for a lot of fish, that they need the oils in worms (and whole fish) to keep them healthy.
We (including me) feed clams, and squid which is fine but the oils in these animals is only in the liver and not in the muscle that we are feeding. Copperbands eat these items but they only eat the very small new born babies where they injest the entire animal and thereby get the oils. Almost all fish in the sea eat as a main course, new born fish. These are very common on a reef and are the best food because we are feeding the entire fish. The essential oils are in the liver and the calcium (which the fish also needs in large quantities) are in the bones.
I realize it is very hard to get these foods into our fish and as far as I know there are no commercially available tiny fish.
I do find very small, whole frozen salt water fish in Asian markets.
I use these fish to suppliment the diet of my fish. The only problem with them is they they are dehydrated and hard and need to be soaked in water for a while before the fish can chew them. We really need a product like that that is fresh frozen and can be used like mysis. I have been saying this for years but I guess they are hard to collect or there is not a large enough market for them.
I can collect these tiny fish in the summer in the sea but it is not something I have a lot of time to do for the few fish I can get in my marina which is not the cleanest water either.
I am going to write to some commercial fish food companies to see if there will ever be the possability to get such an item.
They do sell frozen silversides but these are as large as a copperband and not of much use to us for these smaller fish.

 

[Kieth71]

I just picked up my first cbb last night from my LFS and he ate every bit of mysis i put in the tank this morning.I am very excited.I usually treat my fish with prazipro has anyone seen any problems with a cbb and prazi?Here is a few pics of him.

 

[Paul B]

I myself have no experience with prazipro

 

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14461142#post14461142 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I do find very small, whole frozen salt water fish in Asian markets.
I use these fish to suppliment the diet of my fish. The only problem with them is they they are dehydrated and hard and need to be soaked in water for a while before the fish can chew them. We really need a product like that that is fresh frozen and can be used like mysis. I have been saying this for years but I guess they are hard to collect or there is not a large enough market for them.
I can collect these tiny fish in the summer in the sea but it is not something I have a lot of time to do for the few fish I can get in my marina which is not the cleanest water either.
I am going to write to some commercial fish food companies to see if there will ever be the possability to get such an item.
They do sell frozen silversides but these are as large as a copperband and not of much use to us for these smaller fish.

Paul, this is just an idea, but have you considered either getting the clownfish in your tank a mate to breed with or contacting local breeders about fish they intend to cull?

They will lay hundreds of eggs in captivity as often as every two weeks, which will hatch in your tank and most likely become a food source for all of the other tank inhabitants.

Clownfish breeders generally cull fish for a variety of reasons that have more to do with physical deformities or undesirable markings rather than health problems. A breeder who plans to destroy the fish anyway may be willing to sell or even give you very young fish that they don't plan to raise.

 

[Paul B]

Michelle, it sounds good on paper and it would work if I had a few tanks which i would use for breeding. I used to do that but now I only have my reef and a small local tank. My breeding fish are gobies and the babies are tiny. I am sure that when they hatch, the other fish feast on them because I don't remove them.
It would be much better if I could grow them for a couple of months but I don't want to do that anymore.
I don't know any local breeders, as a matter of fact I only know of one person in my neighborhood with a salt tank. He is a member on here.
I am not involved in any aquarium societies so I don't know any people breeding fish.
This summer I was thinking of setting out traps under my boat in my marina to collect enough small fish to freeze.
I also organize collecting trips for anyone who wants to come but we usually just collect butterflies, seahorses, puffers and pipefish
along with grass shrimp which are too large for my fish most are all small. I can collect grass shrimp by the thousands but they are much too large for a copperband.
I have access to blackworms which are in any pet shop in NY.
I really want to see if I can get a commercial aquarium company to sell frozen tiny fish like a quarter inch or smaller. Thats what this hobby really needs.
Soon I will also go to a very large local Asian market to see if I can get some that are not so dehydrated. I mainly want to see if they are available.
Those would be a boon to inland aquarists. But for now inland aquarists should try to get their LFS to stock worms.

 

[dave168]

Well I finally found some LIVE Blackworm for my CBB. He loves them. I found them in city of Montclair, CA. I can buy two scopes and keep them in my ref. for a week. I also found an online guy in California too. Not sure mod would want me post it. if you guy need the link LMK.

 

[Paul B]

Thats great

 

[discusone]

Paul B is dead on the money,as far as Bflys go.They simply cannot be fed 1 or 2 times a day,and be expected to thrive.
My Bflys are fed 4 to 5 times a day during the weekdays,and as much as 7 times during the weekend.
And this is not an easy task for the average hobbyist.And by average,i mean the person who enjoys their tank,but is away from it often.Bflys are a unigue group of fish.The care nessecary for their long term survival is labor intensive,and not for every marine hobbyist.
Bflys do have teeth,but they are very fine teeth,bristles,rather than what we think of as teeth,hence,chaetodon=bristle-tooth.
more of a scraping tooth,as opposed to a biting/chewing tooth.