nineball
Active member
very good Scott....
Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
- Thread starter nineball
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very good Scott....
nineball
Active member
nineball
Active member
Thank you and we hope to make your continuing presence worthwhile. A beer maybe even.
Peter
Just to give our fish guy Mike the proper credit, his company name is Aqua Sculpture Aquatic Design. He was instrumental in getting us an excellent tank from ATM in Las Vegas. He got it delivered it up her, with the stand and then arranged for one of the best large machinery movers, Henderson, to move it from the truck to the basement. It was a very cool day to see this tank way up in the air over Peter's house...all of us hoping those cables were strong enough...
John
nineball
Active member
We are mapping out the systems architecture for the fish room as I type (sort of). I have a tendency to want to get to a reasonable state of conclusion before I post pictures and I am beginning to forget my roots here. I realize that the majority of members are willing to be dragged through the nitty gritty so John and I have agreed we are going to share this part of the build with you.........warts and all.
On this note John deserves some recognition as he came to this project with phenomenal dedication and energy which if you have been following this thread are mandatory qualities for success. John's boss, 'The Architect' (Johnathon) was the driver behind the idea that the fish room should be as much a part of the build as the display tank itself. He imagined an environment that was an unbroken ecosystem in which there were no hidden features.
That notion presented some real challenges as most if not all of you know there are some aspects of this hobby that are not.......shall we say......pretty or conducive to be put on display. On the other hand look at the 'REAL' audience, its you folks, yes you the hobbyists, the members of this forum that are the most likely and appropriate aficionados of what constitutes good and bad practice. So as noted at the outset, this build will include a substantial attempt to make the traditional 'fish room' part of the whole display environment.
Together, we are going to bring Robbie the robot (skimmer) out of the closet. Equipment manufacturers take note.........we are going to demand equipment that can stand public scrutiny, and equipment that can function well from a maintenance point of view in that the design lends itself to better mechanics for optimal integration into the display environment.
There will be detractors who will say that by its very nature this is a messy, noisy and smelly reality that cannot be changed without distorting the very nature of this hobby. This thread is NOT about that. Its simply a design principle that we will try and see how much progress we can make in bringing the back room into the pleasure and experience of the creation and maintenance of the salt water reef definition.
Some aspects of this will be on a larger scale than many hobbyists can afford or are used to but it is my sincere hope that with your help the principles that emerge can be applied to a build of any size or complexity to improve the overall experience. AND those principles will be ours not just mine. You will help John and I discover best practices and embed them into the result.
As anyone with more than an hours experience surfing Reef Central knows there are some phenomenal 'fish rooms' in these threads. Many of them will be bigger, better and more elaborate that this build. This is NOT a competition for the 'Best" fish room. Its simply a focused attempt to make that fish room an integrated part of the traditional display tank experience.
There are going to be a variety of heartfelt recommendations that come from a ton of experience from members of this forum. Some of that advice will be contradictory and be difficult to reconcile. Some of that advice will come from very painful learnings that carry a very heavy emotional foundation.
So I want to be very clear that my energy will be focused on maintaining a very positive learning environment for all of us.
And that means mistakes, my mistakes and perhaps even a naive misstep or two along the way. If there is one thing I have already learned from most of you is that it is not whether mistakes will be made in this hobby but a question of when. Its not whether mistakes will happen its what you do with them that separates the average from the best in this discipline.
I have said this already and I will say it again because it bears repeating. I am very proud and humbled by you all. This thread is a phenomenal example so far of the best positive climate and attitude for an early build and large audience. Everyone really seems to want to see this thing succeed. We can all, yes even me, we can all live vicariously through the results of this build. We need all the help we can get and that means not loosing anyone along the way because of mismanaged differences of opinion. A lofty goal ? YES ........Worthwhhile ambition ? YES It's just one important element in this formula that must be present for success. AND one principle that can't be measured in dollars and cents!!!
I have just one more soap box to climb on and then the next update. That is the criteria and process for the selection of the Four Grand Master's. First a short break........chores:sad2:
Peter
nickjj
Premium Member
Peter and John I admire your dedication to making the fish room every bit as important as the resulting display tank. I can appreciate all the planning a research that will go in to making this room a "state of the art" masterpiece.
I'm sure you are planning a lot of automation and maintenance free aspects to the design which I am looking forward to seeing.
If you haven't checked out Aqua Sculpture Aquatic Design's website I suggest you do. They have been part of a number of incredible builds.
I'm sure you are planning a lot of automation and maintenance free aspects to the design which I am looking forward to seeing.
If you haven't checked out Aqua Sculpture Aquatic Design's website I suggest you do. They have been part of a number of incredible builds.
Andy
New member
Peter
Greetings from the rock. Been following this thread from the outset. Truly an amazing build. I check this thread a few times, if not more, a day looking forward to each new step in the progression. Good luck with this project as it evolves. One of my favourite to date.
Cheers,
Andy
Greetings from the rock. Been following this thread from the outset. Truly an amazing build. I check this thread a few times, if not more, a day looking forward to each new step in the progression. Good luck with this project as it evolves. One of my favourite to date.
Cheers,
Andy
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Sage words in your last post Nineball, apropos of aquarium forums indeed. The passions definitely heat up here, but that isn't always a bad thing. Kudos for showing what goes on behind the curtain "warts and all". Leave the slick pictures and triumphs for TOTM. These build threads are for the members that want to learn from what goes on in the trenches. It's fun to participate vicariously from the sidelines as we try to problem solve how to fit the tank through the door you forgot to measure 
I will take advantage of the latitude you have offered and throw in my 2 cents on protein skimmer selection...
1) The most important factor is reliability. While I agree that you get what you pay for, for the most part, but I have seen some high end units that need frequent adjusting/service or simply go on strike randomly. The skimmer is only as good as the quality and quantity of what it pulls out of your system. Often, thoroughbred skimmers remove proteins quickly, then fizz away for a few hours without removing anything. It's like the story of the tortoise and the hare. While the high end skimmer is asleep at the base of a tree, or sump in our case, the modest tortoise skimmer is chugging along steadily.
2) Anything that is so integral to the well being of your tank and subsequently your own sanity should have as many fail-safes and drip catchers as possible. This is where the premium brands shine, but even the best of them could use a float switch sensor or some kind of mod.
3) There are limitations to what a protein skimmer can accomplish. Whether the protein skimmer is low or high tech, it can only remove 80% of the available proteins and 20% of the available TOC (total organic carbon). Proteins are removed quickly by even a modest skimmer design, but TOC's remain largely out of reach. A more important question to address in this build thread is "what kind of carbon media and reactor are you planning on using?", but it certainly doesn't garner the same passions that skimmer debates drum up
This study shows the limits of foam fractionation. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature
The author made a presentation of his paper at the last Macna, much to the chagrin of the sponsors at the event. He discussed his (AKA "sirrus6") findings here as well. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1208815&page=4
Efficient TOC reduction methods were discussed in the above thread as well.
As Nineball has clearly stated, this isn't a forum for picking apart other members suggestions, so I respectfully submit these points as my opinion only, and welcome other opinions with open ears and closed mouth... well more or less
I will take advantage of the latitude you have offered and throw in my 2 cents on protein skimmer selection...
1) The most important factor is reliability. While I agree that you get what you pay for, for the most part, but I have seen some high end units that need frequent adjusting/service or simply go on strike randomly. The skimmer is only as good as the quality and quantity of what it pulls out of your system. Often, thoroughbred skimmers remove proteins quickly, then fizz away for a few hours without removing anything. It's like the story of the tortoise and the hare. While the high end skimmer is asleep at the base of a tree, or sump in our case, the modest tortoise skimmer is chugging along steadily.
2) Anything that is so integral to the well being of your tank and subsequently your own sanity should have as many fail-safes and drip catchers as possible. This is where the premium brands shine, but even the best of them could use a float switch sensor or some kind of mod.
3) There are limitations to what a protein skimmer can accomplish. Whether the protein skimmer is low or high tech, it can only remove 80% of the available proteins and 20% of the available TOC (total organic carbon). Proteins are removed quickly by even a modest skimmer design, but TOC's remain largely out of reach. A more important question to address in this build thread is "what kind of carbon media and reactor are you planning on using?", but it certainly doesn't garner the same passions that skimmer debates drum up
This study shows the limits of foam fractionation. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature
The author made a presentation of his paper at the last Macna, much to the chagrin of the sponsors at the event. He discussed his (AKA "sirrus6") findings here as well. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1208815&page=4
Efficient TOC reduction methods were discussed in the above thread as well.
As Nineball has clearly stated, this isn't a forum for picking apart other members suggestions, so I respectfully submit these points as my opinion only, and welcome other opinions with open ears and closed mouth... well more or less
nickjj
Premium Member
Problem solving is a big part of this hobby.
Mr.Wilson I'm glad I took your advice to build a cardboard box tank to see if it fits through my door and down to the basement before I ordered it. It would suck to have it delivered from Beaverton Oregon and then have to put it up for sale on AP.
Planning is the key to success.
Mr.Wilson I'm glad I took your advice to build a cardboard box tank to see if it fits through my door and down to the basement before I ordered it. It would suck to have it delivered from Beaverton Oregon and then have to put it up for sale on AP.
Planning is the key to success.
Whole nother level? your not talking about gas...grass or *** rule are you? Gas sure, grass if you you want, ***:bigeyes: I'm not into that kind of party LOL
That company you mentionedsetting up your tank, where are they from? do they have a store as well? I would love to see a new store.
Aqua Sculpture Aquatic Design http://www.aquariumservicestoronto.com/ Mike does not have a store, he did, but not any more.
Aquarist007
New member
I congratulate you for a fabulous tank build and thread. I am really glad to see a project like this evolving--esp in my neighbourhood. It is equally great that it has the contribution of Mr. Wilson-- a very experienced reefer, again in our area.
nineball
Active member
The Four Grand Masters
The Four Grand Masters
As most of you know by now, one of the founding design goals was to create four islands, each representing as best I can the `style and makeup`of the worlds best examples of those styles.
What I mean by `style and makeup`, is that if you look at these tanks from 50 feet away you can honestly say .......... that`s in the Chingchai style. There are other tanks that have that style but there is no better representation of that style in the world. If you wanted to build a tank in that style you could do no better than use his build as the blueprint for your own.
Other elements, that help define that style is that it is clear that the corals are the main event and the fish are the accents. Although the tank is deep and very high by Chingchai`s preference, there are examples of his style in tanks that are shallower relative to his preferred depth.
There may even be a name for that style that long timers in this forum would recognize. I would very much appreciate the proper label if one exists. Until then I will refer to that style as the Chingchai style.
Chingchai would be the first one to stand up and tell you the names of 5 tanks that are far superior to his in every respect. Some of them would even be candidates I think, for this honour. The distinction I want to make very clear is that this is not about finding the best tank in the world. That`s the stuff for another thread entirely. This is about the best representation of a unique identifiable style that is unmistakable. The point after all is to help me find four distinctive styles that I can try to demonstrate in this tank.
Another style we all commonly refer to is the vegetable or fruit stand. It is extremely common for obvious reasons. Most display environments in homes lend themselves best to this type of display arrangement and it fits one of the most common reef architectures in the wild. Finding the best example in the world of this style is going to be extremely difficult as there are so many fantastic tanks to choose from, so there must be additional criteria to help us select.
There is another style called the `Canyon`. This form usually takes the shape of a lazy S with greatly improved affect the deeper it goes giving almost an underwater fjord look and feel. There are a growing number of examples and perhaps even a strong enough candidate to be considered here.
OK, time for an admission here that I have been struggling with my declared second choice and that was David Saxby`s tank. David is virtually an institution in this domain. His tank was created and discovered when 1500 gal residential tanks were almost non existent. Most of todays common place equipment either did not exist at that time or the stuff that was available was in early first generation form. Yet David produced results that were second to none. He was one of the first vocal advocates of substantial water changes to maintain balanced water quality.
The challenge I have is that the closest `style`I can identify for his effort is the fruit stand (he would disagree with me) and today, there are far better examples out there than David`s. I think this exercise has been helpful to me to find the best path to the four Grand Masters. I propose that we identify four styles that are unique first and then after we reach a consensus we nominate the best aquarists in each category.
I`m going to assume that the first island will be in the Chingchai style. The second, third and fourth will be in which style. Choose your style and try if possible to restrict this pass to just a suggested style NOT the aquarists.
Three styles to go.................
Suggest away
Peter
The Four Grand Masters
As most of you know by now, one of the founding design goals was to create four islands, each representing as best I can the `style and makeup`of the worlds best examples of those styles.
What I mean by `style and makeup`, is that if you look at these tanks from 50 feet away you can honestly say .......... that`s in the Chingchai style. There are other tanks that have that style but there is no better representation of that style in the world. If you wanted to build a tank in that style you could do no better than use his build as the blueprint for your own.
Other elements, that help define that style is that it is clear that the corals are the main event and the fish are the accents. Although the tank is deep and very high by Chingchai`s preference, there are examples of his style in tanks that are shallower relative to his preferred depth.
There may even be a name for that style that long timers in this forum would recognize. I would very much appreciate the proper label if one exists. Until then I will refer to that style as the Chingchai style.
Chingchai would be the first one to stand up and tell you the names of 5 tanks that are far superior to his in every respect. Some of them would even be candidates I think, for this honour. The distinction I want to make very clear is that this is not about finding the best tank in the world. That`s the stuff for another thread entirely. This is about the best representation of a unique identifiable style that is unmistakable. The point after all is to help me find four distinctive styles that I can try to demonstrate in this tank.
Another style we all commonly refer to is the vegetable or fruit stand. It is extremely common for obvious reasons. Most display environments in homes lend themselves best to this type of display arrangement and it fits one of the most common reef architectures in the wild. Finding the best example in the world of this style is going to be extremely difficult as there are so many fantastic tanks to choose from, so there must be additional criteria to help us select.
There is another style called the `Canyon`. This form usually takes the shape of a lazy S with greatly improved affect the deeper it goes giving almost an underwater fjord look and feel. There are a growing number of examples and perhaps even a strong enough candidate to be considered here.
OK, time for an admission here that I have been struggling with my declared second choice and that was David Saxby`s tank. David is virtually an institution in this domain. His tank was created and discovered when 1500 gal residential tanks were almost non existent. Most of todays common place equipment either did not exist at that time or the stuff that was available was in early first generation form. Yet David produced results that were second to none. He was one of the first vocal advocates of substantial water changes to maintain balanced water quality.
The challenge I have is that the closest `style`I can identify for his effort is the fruit stand (he would disagree with me) and today, there are far better examples out there than David`s. I think this exercise has been helpful to me to find the best path to the four Grand Masters. I propose that we identify four styles that are unique first and then after we reach a consensus we nominate the best aquarists in each category.
I`m going to assume that the first island will be in the Chingchai style. The second, third and fourth will be in which style. Choose your style and try if possible to restrict this pass to just a suggested style NOT the aquarists.
Three styles to go.................
Suggest away
Peter
danielcherian
New member
Based on the limited depth (from front to back), how feasible will the 'canyon' style be? And it would require at least two 'islands'...
Steve Weast's 'canyon' required considerable depth to pull off:
Steve Weast's 'canyon' required considerable depth to pull off:
nineball
Active member
Based on the limited depth (from front to back), how feasible will the 'canyon' style be? And it would require at least two 'islands'...
Steve Weast's 'canyon' required considerable depth to pull off:
I thought of this style as well as a good candidate. It is certainly recognizable as a distinct approach and is very doable in my tank. I certainly wouldn't object to this style as one of the four. Lets see if we can muster some support from others. Remember its the style at this point. Steve Weast may well be a serious contender but that discussion should follow the agreement on the styles first.
Peter
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