Critique my sump design

GhostCon1

Rebmem Deretsiger
I just started using a CAD program today and came up with this for a future build which I hope will prevent the problems I have with my current sump (space, ease of access, etc.)

Tell me what you think, what recommendations you have, anything.

I'm thinking the dimensions will be something like 48Lx24Wx24H. The DT will be a 72L x 30W x 24H rimless.


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Everything looks better when you sketch it, and by sketch I mean digital rendering. Will you have a skimmer in this sump? If so you might want to put LR with the DSB and put you skimmer there. Also the return section is huge. You definitely want your skimmer before the bubble trap baffles.
 
I don't know yet if I'm going to have my current skimmer (rated for 300gallons) sitting in the sump, or plumbed externally.

My skimmer doesn't really produce that many microbubbles but I thought I've seen a few people with skimmers in the return section.

There will be live rock under the drain pipe, in the return section, and in the fuge.

Thanks for your input!
 
Unless your going with a super minimalist or bare bottom design, I wouldn't bother with live rock. A couple bags of Seachem Matrix rock will be more than enough.
 
My plan for the added live rock is one increased filtration and, two, more surface area for life diversity in addition to the fuge.
 
Live rock in the sump = bio balls, and nothing more. Bio balls have been pretty much drummed out of the hobby for being nitrate factories. The additional filtration is not needed nor desired.

Nurturing bio-diversity in the sump, is also counter intuitive. The sump is an area for the export of unwanted material, not the production of unwanted material. Diversity in the sump, turns it into a high production zone the same as the DT, high production = more unwanted material. The unwanted materials are: Dissolved organics, and Nitrate. The only thing that removes dissolved organics is the skimmer, and the only method practical for a sump, for removing nitrate is macro. "Live rock" won't do it.

Another method to remove nitrate is an RDSB, but given the constraints of a sump, it is not a method well suited for a sump. Coupled with the rather strict conditions of the method, they are best looped from the sump and back to the sump, rather than incorporated in the sump. Some sand in the sump does not qualify as an RDSB. In most cases, sand in the sump turns into a nitrate factory, frustrating your efforts more than helping.

Bio diverse refugiums are a discipline unto themselves, and as such, should be plumbed in parallel to the DT to a common sump, rather than inline with the DT, as a water management tool: they produce more than they export.
 
I hadn't heard that about the live rock, thanks.

The fuge I planned in the sump would get its water from the DT, then that would be pumped or overflow back in to the return area of the sump. From what you said, uncle, should there be another drain pipe going directly to the fuge instead of being tee'd off from one of the two drain pipes? I plan on using the BeanAnimal/c2c overflow. Not sure if you can tell from my design, but other than residing in the sump, the fuge is separate from it (the acrylic divider will go to about 1-2" from top).

The sand bed will be at least 6" in the fuge with chaeto and possibly caulerpa.
 
I would make up your mind about the Skimmer before you do anything. The baffle heights and setup in your skimmer section will be dictated by your skimmer selection.
 
Is the middle section return and skimmer?. If it is, I'd move the baffles to the right (first image) and put the skimmer to the left of the baffles. If you want some kind of LR section over there you could make a box out of egg crate for it.

Even though your skimmer doesn't make many micro bubbles, I'd put a baffle between it and the return.

The hole for WC...
Will the flow out be gravity flow or are you putting a pump on it? You could also just 'tee' off the return to pump out for WC.

Heaters...
Seems like they could run dry in that compartment. How long are your heaters? Would they fit there? I'd move them to a horizontal position on the bottom of the sump.

You did say you wanted a critique! :)
 
where you plan the live rock should be where your drain/emergency drain and skimmer go. Don't put your skimmer in same area as return because some skimmer can shoot out some serious microbubbles that will eventually end up in the DT.

your ATO should be in the return to keep consistency. Good luck.
 
I would make up your mind about the Skimmer before you do anything. The baffle heights and setup in your skimmer section will be dictated by your skimmer selection.

Yes, my skimmer is already chosen. It's the one I'm using on my current system. Thanks

Is the middle section return and skimmer?. If it is, I'd move the baffles to the right (first image) and put the skimmer to the left of the baffles. If you want some kind of LR section over there you could make a box out of egg crate for it.

Even though your skimmer doesn't make many micro bubbles, I'd put a baffle between it and the return.

The hole for WC...
Will the flow out be gravity flow or are you putting a pump on it? You could also just 'tee' off the return to pump out for WC.

Heaters...
Seems like they could run dry in that compartment. How long are your heaters? Would they fit there? I'd move them to a horizontal position on the bottom of the sump.

You did say you wanted a critique! :)

I hadn't even thought of the tee off for the WC! Thanks, I like that idea better.

I should have clarified this isn't to scale at all lol. The heater holders are probably too high in the design, but they will be much lower as I plan on using submersible heaters. Bringing up running dry, I will move them over to the probe area.

The middle section was for skimmer and return, but now I think I will reduce the return section and increase the drain area. I still don't know if I want my skimmer to be in sump or external.

Thanks for your input!

where you plan the live rock should be where your drain/emergency drain and skimmer go. Don't put your skimmer in same area as return because some skimmer can shoot out some serious microbubbles that will eventually end up in the DT.

your ATO should be in the return to keep consistency. Good luck.

Thanks for that tip about the ATO, I hadn't thought about the water level fluctuating in there for the ATO to operate correctly.
 
Basicly your building a sump refugium with live rock...from my point of view atleast.

Live rock is the best route to go... live rock does ack as a filter, the benifical bacteria in the rock will help the water quality (nitrogen cycle wise) and having water flow directly threw it, even better. In refugiums it also provides a breeding ground for feeder shrimp, copepods, and other good things.. plus extra storage for an aggressive animal or unsuspected hitchhiker.
 
I hadn't heard that about the live rock, thanks.

The fuge I planned in the sump would get its water from the DT, then that would be pumped or overflow back in to the return area of the sump. From what you said, uncle, should there be another drain pipe going directly to the fuge instead of being tee'd off from one of the two drain pipes? I plan on using the BeanAnimal/c2c overflow. Not sure if you can tell from my design, but other than residing in the sump, the fuge is separate from it (the acrylic divider will go to about 1-2" from top).

The sand bed will be at least 6" in the fuge with chaeto and possibly caulerpa.


Do not feed the "fuge" section from the drain line. It messes with the operation of the drain system, and assists in turning the 'fuge' into a garbage dump. If doing a fuge, feed the fuge from a tee in the return line.

The BA system, has only 1 drain line (the siphon) with appreciable flow. This line needs to drop directly into the skimmer section, which should be the first section of the sump. The open channel has very little flow (when adjusted properly) and needs to drop into the skimmer section as well (same water level) due to the interaction between the siphon and open channel. Again, do not split the drain lines to feed other accessories.

An RDSB should have no other life in it other than bacteria. DSBs are simple to implement, however they are very STRICT methods, and straying from the strict implementation, is why they get a bad wrap: They go bad. Most contemporary hobbyists have never used one.

Most comtemporary hobbyists, have a deep ingrained belief that live rock provides some "miracle" filtrationthat you can't get enough of. Although, in times long past, this was somewhat true. The rich bio-diversity on and in Live Rock of the past was 1/2 of the backbone from which reefing was born, back in the late 1960s. The other half was real live sand. (not the garbage that comes in a bag.)

Legislation and curing, have eliminated this Live Rock from the market. To be honest, even cultured live rock does not compare, but it is a better bet, than what you can pick up from an LFS or mail order, that will be nothing but a rock that was collected from the ocean, has some bacteria on it (but every surface has that (bacteria are ubiquitous,) maybe an occasional hitchiker that does no good at all and maybe some coralline spores. This rock will never become "live" in the true definition in a closed system; rather provides material for an aquascape, something you can stick coral too, and a surface area for nitrifying bacteria. Other thoughts on what 'live rock' is going to do, has no basis in science.

Most rules of thumbs for how much rock per gallon, overload the system with rock, for no good reason (other than to seperate you from your money,) and interferes with good circulation. Tanks with half that much rock in them, have no problems producing nitrates at all, so there is no point to adding more in the sump. Pods grow in the main tank (if the system is capable of that,) so there is no point to culturing them. If you need to culture food, try phytoplankton, simple, inexpensive and seperate from the main system.

The argument for in sump bio-diverse 'refugiums," complete with sand, rock (bio-balls,) pods, crabs snails ad infinitum, is a relative of the circular argument. On the one hand, the sump is to remove unwanted material from the system, on the other hand folks want to load it up with stuff that adds to the problem. It isn't very logical.
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These are very involved and complex topics.
 
Thanks for the feedback uncle, I've decided to decrease the size of the return section and have just my pump in there. I'll amend my design and post it later.

Where I was going to have the fuge, I'll put instead reactors/dosers with a pump pushing the water into the display section.

I do want to use a RDSB, but should I have it: plumbed from the return section of the sump, to the RDSB, then back to the return area or go from sump, to RDSB, to DT?

I also want to use chaeto somewhere.
 
Maybe you can eliminate the hole for draining, and replace it with something coming down into the compartment. This would be one less thing to leak.
 
I would always have the output of my skimmer, whether internal or external, separated from my main return pump by a bubble trap. Agree completely with the absurdity of keeping a pile of rocks in the sump. It is completely unecessary. I have probably half of the rock most folks would have in at a tank my size, along with a robust fish population, and have no traces of ammonia problems - so the rock (and the sand) functions adequately as a biological filter. Nitrates are far better handled by a big skimmer (removes organics that will become nitrate) and algae (removes nitrates directly) either in the form of macro or an ATS.
 
Some things you definitely want to consider....
1) Do NOT make this mistake! I'm assuming that this will be UNDER your tank... which means that WHEN the return pump fails (failure, power-outage, accidentally turning off), water will reverse flow down in a gravity siphon (you cannnot trust check-valves... they ultimately get a snail stuck in them and fail). If this happens, your return loc-line's LOWEST point (not your overflow) will be the point at which water from your DT will drain. Take some measurements and find a water calculator and plan for this by making the baffles low enough so that the sump could accommodate this extra in case of an outage. I PROMISE, you do not want to come back after a power-outage storm and see a small flood. The "adjustment" for this is to keep the loc-line almost as high as the overflow baffles (AND/OR... double head the loc-line and keep 1 high (the other can be low, so when air hits the high one it breaks the siphon)... then the bulkhead drill height will be the lowest amount of water drain... but please remember... your 1 way check valve WILL fail at some point, I've seen it too many times). My 29g (tall) sump for my 72 bow is only 66% full (meaning the baffles are only 2/3 of the way up). If the power goes out (and I tested this without the check valve in case it fails) the extra (calculated) 10g will fill up the sump to the brim (but not over flow).

Here is one of my 'goofs', when plumming and testing this myself... I thought I would be smart and do all of this planning.... I made the baffles as high as possible to maximize all I could (but accommodate, just in case)... I tested it, and it worked perfectly... (but I didn't factor in the components, extra rock, and sand space, etc.). I think that in the worst case scenario, I would have less than a 1 liter flood though (which is much better than a 10 gallon flood). Note: After the last power-outage, the check valve on the return did fail (but mostly worked... it slowed). In 2 hours that the power was out, the sump gradually filled, but knowing my error, I bailed a couple gallons into a bucket before this could happen.

2) If you have the space, I'd make the baffles 1.5"-2" apart to make the glass easier to clean in-between.

3) Plan for the footprint of your skimmer or any reactors.

4) I personally have a drain/components area, which pass 2 baffles to a very small fugue, which pass another baffle to the return.

And... I just noticed that this thread was 9 months ago... oh well, I'll post for any that are considering.
 
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