Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method

[wooden_reefer]

"TT is an ideal way to eradicate ich; especially for new hobbyists who aren't familiar with the little tricks that make copper safe & effective. "

It is far better for even beginners to learn the use of hypo and copper than to handle fish and buckets of water often and use Amquel or expose fish to ammonia.

How can this effect be worth not learning the skill for the life of of a hobbyist?

Compliance comes hand and hand with ease of execution.

Learn how to eradicate ich systematically with little work, by planing ahead. It is called growth in skill.

 

[tmz]

I think you are wrong .You can keep talking to yourself if you like but you certainly are not "growing in skill"nor helping anyone else to. That comes from having an open mind ,studying. listening and thinking through new ideas with the notion that something might be learned from discussion.
7 posts in a row,wow.,13 out of the last 16. 50 in row wouldn't make your argument any more cogent or helpful. You like copper in a cylced tank;good for you;so, how many more posts will it take you to say that .
There just doesn't seem to be any respect for anyone else's opinion ,experience or ability or the science of it all in those posts . Sometimes more posts is just more nonsense. The posts are argumentative and really not making any sense nor offering any useful infromation ;secret unnamed sources .really? I surmise you think you have the true best method or just wan't to be contrary and won't listen to anything that might change your mind including folks like Spotte who wrote very complete authoratiative works on marine fish. Ammonia is in every tank; it's a question of how much ,and how long it lasts?
I can't measure 0 ammonia with hobbyg rade test kits.btw. What kit do you use that gives you reading at <0.1? . I've never seen detectable total ammonia during tank transfer . If I have a large fish I use a larger tank.

When is the last time you tired tank transfer? Ever?

I've used copper and hypo before many times and liked copper most of the time. I keep a cycled qt tank running but don't put fish with ich in it . I'm always looking for ways to improve and find what works better. Tank transfer is superior for actively treating ich and for prophylactic treatment of new specimens in many ways,ime. It is much easier than I thought it would be .Fish stay very healthy duringthe process and feed well. No appetite supression, no med reactions, no stress,no detectable ammonia, no ich.
I never said amquell either; my preference is ammo lock . It has no effect on fish and it's easy to dose an appropriate amount. It's not necessary but I'm a bit overcautious andaddd a small dose after 36 hours.

If you are happy with copper ,that's fine but there is no need to use CAPITAL letters, commonly known to be shouting. Nor is there a need to make inaccurate statements like you never expose your fish to any ammonia. Copper hs it's pitfalls. Tank transfer is a fine method ,easier than those who haven't tried it think,med and detectable ammonia free.Gentle capture is easy in a bare tank partially drained. Those things become obvious to those use it.

 

[MrTuskfish]

^^^^^Thanks Tom!^^^^^
I agree completely. Anyone with reasonable language skills should be able to express an opinion without the insults. (Most statements on this page of this thread are opinions, not facts) This long thread contains excellent information from true C.I. experts. That, in itself, really doesn't prove anything; but it is far more convincing than covering the forum with many statements that are undocumented, untested by the poster, obscure and generalizing, or just plain wrong.

 

[b0bab0ey]

IME, TT works but it is also a lot of work. Or maybe I should say time-consuming.

If you only have 2 tanks to work with, then every 3 days you're constantly cleaning/sterilizing a tank and all equipment. And you can't wait; You've got to jump on it ASAP because it will need to thoroughly dry before you can use it again.

I really need to buy a 3rd tank/equipment to give myself more breathing room. Right now I'm only using TT for smaller fish. No causalities or Ich so far!

 

[tmz]

It is some work but I find it easier than fretting over ammonia and copper level tests, inordinately long periods o confinement for the fish and so on with the other useful methods.
I use 2 ,10gallon gallon tanks most of the time and keep them very simple. Hob or sponge filter air stone, heater. Some pvc for resting places ; a bowl of sand if a particular fish needs it. After 3 days , these few things come out of the tank and are laid out on a table to dry . Sand if used is discarded.Then the water is drained down to a couple of inches. This makes capturing the fish for tansfer easier.Sometimes I cradletehm out in my hand ; sometimes with a fine mesh net(brine shrimp net) Everything is quickly rinsed before dry out. The tank is toweled off and placed on the floor upside down(it's all in the unfinished basement) with one edge propped on a salt bucket lid to allow it to drain dry.By the time I need it again the next day or day after everything is dry. On high humidity summer days a fan helps I use newly mixed salt water for each transfer with temp and sg matched to the previous tank. The hardest part is lugging the water . I could use a pump but it all goes pretty quick and I need a little exercise anyway.
I also run a 35 gallon vacant cycled tank with just the hob filter running. A day before using that I'll crank up the heater. I use it for a 2 weeks additional observation period to spot any other maladies that may show up.
It may not be for everyone but it is by far my favorite method.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Sure, TT can be a hassle. But given the ich treatment choices that work (IMO & IME, anyhow), copper either scares people or they haven't learned how to use it. Many folks will resort to the useless "reef-safe" cures. They will not use copper because of all the negative publicity surrounding copper. I know longer think hypo is a decent choice for treating ich. The quinine drugs may work well, but they are hard to find and still relatively unknown; this seems to be changing. That leaves TT; fairly simple and foolproof; especially for folks with no copper experience. .

 

[i3oosted]

I think I will try the TTM on my next fish. Right now I have a clean DT(though you never really know for sure).

I have a few fish in QT that had come down with ich after a week. Currently treating with Crypto-Pro. My royal gramma died into day 4 of treatment BUT it had the worst of the ich so it is unknown if the quinine sulfate or crypto killed it.

I'm so freaking paranoid of getting ich in my DT and unpatient(in the sense of something not working after a month of treatment, I'd be really angry).

I'm already doing 5g WC's daily as per treatment of crypto pro so the expense and time will be almost the same as TTM.

 

[tmz]

I've not tried the "crypto pro" or other quinine sulfate regimens. Looks promising for some applications. I'd like to hear more about your experience with it.
Sorry about the gramma. I've never seen one of them survive an initial infestation as I think about it.They seem to be one of the first to go. Good luck.

 

[wooden_reefer]

In the way the original post suggests TT, this method is dubious. It says not just to expose fish to ammonia for a few days, but repeatedly. And to handle the fish often!. Please, don't.

I urge all to take a comprehensive view to QT. QT is not just to eradicate ich.

The TT method is targeted against ich, and this whole perspective is too restrictive and the procedure is grossly flawed.

I always use UV in conjunction with eradication of ich with hypo or copper.

Bacterial infection among newly imported fish is a real problem.

The benefit of UV against bacterial (and viral) infection is subtle and may elude many people. I will never go without UV for newly imported fish, especially during the 10-12 weeks to eradicate ich.

Curiously, the frequent 100% water change as suggested here may duplicate the effect of UV to some extent, but only for the first day after WC. The UV keeps waterborne pathogenic bacteria concentration very low.

Bacterial infection is a major concern in more than one way: try to not break the mucus barrier of fish and use UV during eradication of ich.

Hypo or copper methiod to eradicate ich are easier for many reasons, one additional one as I point out is the ease of use of UV. Once set up, you don't have to fuss with the UV during eradication of ich.

 

[MrTuskfish]

In the way the original post suggests TT, this method is dubious. It says not just to expose fish to ammonia for a few days, but repeatedly. And to handle the fish often!. Please, don't.

I urge all to take a comprehensive view to QT. QT is not just to eradicate ich.

The TT method is targeted against ich, and this whole perspective is too restrictive and the procedure is grossly flawed.

I always use UV in conjunction with eradication of ich with hypo or copper.

Bacterial infection among newly imported fish is a real problem.

The benefit of UV against bacterial (and viral) infection is subtle and may elude many people. I will never go without UV for newly imported fish, especially during the 10-12 weeks to eradicate ich.

Curiously, the frequent 100% water change as suggested here may duplicate the effect of UV to some extent, but only for the first day after WC. The UV keeps waterborne pathogenic bacteria concentration very low.

Bacterial infection is a major concern in more than one way: try to not break the mucus barrier of fish and use UV during eradication of ich.

Hypo or copper methiod to eradicate ich are easier for many reasons, one additional one as I point out is the ease of use of UV. Once set up, you don't have to fuss with the UV during eradication of ich.

How to you train all the new generations of free-swimming ich to find the UV intake before they find a fish host? Sure, UV may help a (very little) bit; but it cannot eliminate or prevent ich by itself. Copper or TT can. Hypo seems to be failing very often lately. I know of no published authority or study that still considers UV a major tool to eliminate ich. UV will prevent ich from moving between tanks in multi-tank setups.it will also help with water clarity and bacteria in the water column. Help is the key word. Ich and bacteria must be eliminated at a near total rate; UV can't do this.

 

[wooden_reefer]

How to you train all the new generations of free-swimming ich to find the UV intake before they find a fish host? Sure, UV may help a (very little) bit; but it cannot eliminate or prevent ich by itself. Copper or TT can. Hypo seems to be failing very often lately. I know of no published authority or study that still considers UV a major tool to eliminate ich. UV will prevent ich from moving between tanks in multi-tank setups.it will also help with water clarity and bacteria in the water column. Help is the key word. Ich and bacteria must be eliminated at a near total rate; UV can't do this.

Please read a post!

UV is NOT against ich.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Only one who has no quantitative commonsense would prefer water change, bucket, and fish transfer over hypo and copper, or Amquel or Prime.

With hypo, in particular, once set up, an aquarist has to do ZERO. Just feed the fish and observe.

Even with copper, my method that has worked very well for me for over 25 years requires almost no work.

Ammonia WILL be zero if you had planned ahead.

Why on earth would you want to do so much work?

Plus, if too numerous attachment have already taken place, the TT method won't work at all.

Copper, in particular, has the advantage of curative effect. Many had stated that ich that is already on the fish is not vulnerable to copper, but I have to disagree.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Ich and Ich; this is basically a dead horse issue for the most part. Method to effectively and effortlessly eradicate ich systematically is well founded. Only with fish that cannot take hypo or copper does the TT method has value.

What an aquarist should consider is bacterial and viral, and other parasites, while ich is surely and easily eradicated.

 

[tmz]

The fish are not exposed to ammonia at detectable levels with tank transfer.ime.

Uv may temporarily reduce bacteria concentrations in the water column, the bacteria equilibrate by growing more to take up the slack . In any case most bacterial infections occur and reside in or on the fish and don't see the inside of uv. IME,bacterial infections can occur but are not nearly as common as ich. They should be treated with an broad spectrum antibiotic in a hospital tank,; not with UV.

Tank transfer is only effective against cryptocaryon,which is the most common killer for fish. It may mitigate velvet which also has a free swimming phase but is not reliable for that since the life cycle of that parasite is much different.

It does not contribute in anyway to bacterial infections with careful fish handling and gentle capture. Beyond that I'll refrain from discussing treatments for other maladies since this thread is about the tank transfer method and cryptocaryon irritans.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The fish are not exposed to ammonia at detectable levels with tank transfer.ime.

Uv may temporarily reduce bacteria concentrations in the water column, the bacteria equilibrate by growing more to take up the slack . In any case most bacterial infections occur and reside in or on the fish and don't see the inside of uv. IME,bacterial infections can occur but are not nearly as common as ich. They should be treated with an broad spectrum antibiotic in a hospital tank,; not with UV.

Tank transfer is only effective against cryptocaryon,which is the most common killer for fish. It may mitigate velvet which also has a free swimming phase but is not reliable for that since the life cycle of that parasite is much different.

It does not contribute in anyway to bacterial infections with careful fish handling and gentle capture. Beyond that I'll refrain from discussing treatments for other maladies since this thread is about the tank transfer method and cryptocaryon irritans.

Please, you know that ammonia is not good for fish. Why would you want to take up a position that claims a bit of ammonia is not very bad? The fact is that it can be very bad and the impact may not show months later.

This method has some features of the new tank syndrome. You expose fish to low levels of ammonia, not just a few days but repeatedly. Fish die months later in new tank syndrone.

This article should at least mention Prime or Amquel.

Ich is much feared disease only if one does not have the skill to comprehensively eradicate it. The method exist so there is no need to be concerned about ich.

About the UV on bacterial infection... many people do not know how to set up a UV properly, do not understand how it works, or have wild expectation about it. Many do not understand its limitations.

The UV is very important and I WILL never go without it for newly imported fish. Bacterial infection (to a lesser degree viral infection) is the most dreaded disease, since unlike ich, cure is not always effective.

The purpose of the UV is to vastly reduce the waterborne concentration of pathogenic bacteria and viruses. Why is this important? The immune system has two components, generally antibodies which requires previous exposure, and, white blood cells and the likes that do not require previously exposure. The latter's effectiveness is very much dependent on the concentration of the pathogens.

Ever since I started using the UV about 25 years ago, the incidents of bacterial infection has dropped by about 80%.

The UV is hard to understand so many people miss its benefits. The UV's impact is not absolute and sometimes it does not work; this makes it even more elusive. We are talking about percentage of chances with respect to the UV on bacterial infection.

The UV destroys many drugs, so it is more preventive than cure.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Please, you know that ammonia is not good for fish. Why would you want to take up a position that claims a bit of ammonia is not very bad? The fact is that it can be very bad and the impact may not show months later.

This method has some features of the new tank syndrome. You expose fish to low levels of ammonia, not just a few days but repeatedly. Fish die months later in new tank syndrone.

This article should at least mention Prime or Amquel.

Ich is much feared disease only if one does not have the skill to comprehensively eradicate it. The method exist so there is no need to be concerned about ich.

About the UV on bacterial infection... many people do not know how to set up a UV properly, do not understand how it works, or have wild expectation about it. Many do not understand its limitations.

The UV is very important and I WILL never go without it for newly imported fish. Bacterial infection (to a lesser degree viral infection) is the most dreaded disease, since unlike ich, cure is not always effective.

The purpose of the UV is to vastly reduce the waterborne concentration of pathogenic bacteria and viruses. Why is this important? The immune system has two components, generally antibodies which requires previous exposure, and, white blood cells and the likes that do not require previously exposure. The latter's effectiveness is very much dependent on the concentration of the pathogens.

Ever since I started using the UV about 25 years ago, the incidents of bacterial infection has dropped by about 80%.

The UV is hard to understand so many people miss its benefits. The UV's impact is not absolute and sometimes it does not work; this makes it even more elusive. We are talking about percentage of chances with respect to the UV on bacterial infection.

The UV destroys many drugs, so it is more preventive than cure.

Don't you realize that most folks we try to help with ich on this forum are new hobbyists??? If you aren't suggesting UV for ich, then why go to such lengths to discuss it on this thread? This thread is discussing the tank-transfer method of treating ich. Not UV for bacteria, how to be ready to cycle a QT, or anything else. Folks reading this thread are trying to understand TT. Why don't you just start your own thread, explain your own opinions, and let people comment? Your opinions are no more, and no less, important than anyone else's. You have paragraph on paragraph of info on this thread that make it impossible for any newer hobbyist to understand the thread; so please, start your own. Perhaps the originator of this thread will re-post it and have the mods lock it. All the ranting does nothing to give your opinions they may, or may not, deserve.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Please read a post!

UV is NOT against ich.

I really don't know what "UV is NOT against ich" means, but I'll guess.
Please re-read YOUR post. "UV" and "ich" are used several times in the same sentence. It is confusing, at best. If "UV is NOT against ich" in those sentences, what is it "against"? Communism?

You make some valid points. But they are hidden in the middle of all the rude attacks on others opinions and the lecturing, endless, and wandering posts you have all over the board.
As I tried to say previously; perhaps you could help others by writing a thread of what YOUR opinions and experiences are.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"Don't you realize that most folks we try to help with ich on this forum are new hobbyists??? If you aren't suggesting UV for ich, then why go to such lengths to discuss it on this thread?"

Because bacterial infection affect begineers as well.

Because what is required to keep fish well is not only against ich,and does not center on whether the aquarist is a beginner.

Because the method of TT as is outlined here makes the use of UV against bacterial infection control more complicated.

Because an aquarist at any level should be aware of the various forms of pathogens that can claim the lives of his fish.

Beacuse hypo or copper to eradicate ich is first easier to do (more to learn perhaps) and is much more compatible with bacterial control in conjuction.

This hobby is not simple. You cannot make it simple just by classification.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I would agree that a beginner should not be told too mch, more than he can digest.

But the experienced should not point them toward a path that will lead to bad habits and concepts that will be hard to break later.

If one were to plan a course for the beginners, this TT method should not be it.

 

[b0bab0ey]

If one were to plan a course for the beginners, this TT method should not be it.

I just don't understand your reasoning. TT isn't for the lazy, but it's quite suitable for the beginner. I mean, you can do it with a pair of buckets, a couple of heaters and some air stones if the fish is small enough. Otherwise, it's no different than setting up & breaking down a regular sized QT.

Can a beginner test for ammonia every day? I sure hope so, or he's gonna have a helluva time testing for copper.

Can a beginner add some Amquel if the ammonia starts getting elevated? It's a lot safer to pour in than copper!

Can a beginner net/capture a fish? Can he/she take a bucket or tank outside and clean it (and all equipment) with vinegar? Can he/she make more s/w for the next transfer (or just take it from the DT)?

If a beginner can't do any of those things than figuring out a sump, protein skimmer, wiring a lighting system, dosing trace elements, etc. is way over their heads anyway...