Cupramine + Amquel or Ammolock = ?

N

Newreeflady

New member
What happens, why is Amquel + cuprimine supposed to be toxic? I've seen references to people doing fine, others not.

Also, what is Ammo-lock? Are there any ammonia chelating/binding products that are OK to use with medications such as Cuprimine and Prazipro?

Thx!
Angela
 
The Amquel can reduce the copper into a more toxic form, which can be deadly. I'd avoid that combination. Ammo-Lock might have the same issue. I wouldn't use an ammonia binder with copper. I thought that PraziPro (praziquantel) was safe with ammonia binders.
 
Any dechlor or dechloraminator has issue with Cupramine in reducing Cu++ to the 10 x more toxic Cu +. Ammo-lock is not the same thing as Amquel but still contains the dechlor sodium thiosulfate plus alphatic amine salts. The end result to Cu+ is the same. Mixing any of these with Cupramine is like Russian Roulette. Most of it revolves around adding or using to much dechloraminator like Amquel or Ammon-Lock. SeaChem Labs, the manufacture of Curpamine, tells you on their own website not mix them.
 
Hi Boomer,

Do you know if Amquel Plus is also safe with Prazipro? I was unable to find regular Amquel at Walmart and Petsmart:(

Thanks,
Angela
 
Hi Angela
What happens, why is Amquel + cuprimine supposed to be toxic?

Fish die quickly.

I don't know wether it's safe to use with prazi pro or not. It is ok to use prazi pro with cupramine, ime.
 
I have no clue, like the rest, if Amquel or Amquel plus is safe with Parzi or not. Amquel is Amquel, plus or not.
 
Well, I have read that Amquel is safe, but in one place someone said not Amquel Plus. But, this was a post from years ago so who knows??.. I do assume that "Amquel" is not the same as "Amquel Plus"... sounds like "Plus" has more stuff in it, and who knows if that is OK with the Prazipro? Basically need to hear from a few people who have used it and found out. :/

-A
 
A and A + are not much different and both contain Sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate, which is what we are worried about. The only difference is the claim that the plus removes nitrate, which it does not and just masks the test kit reading. It also contains a pH buffer, so it is less acidic and has a higher pH than straight A.
 
Prsonally, I just don't use any ammonia detoxifers anymore especially with any meds and I treat new fish prophylactically. BTW, Ph raises can also move more of the total ammonia into the toxic NH4.
Whenever, I begin to think about getting a fish or two I cycle the q tank with sponge material and an sponge bubble filter and let it run aerated via a small hob filter with only sponge in it ( only a couple of watts). I keep water in it with just a small amount of flow for months at a time. so I'm ready with a cycled tank if I spot that special fish.
If need be ,in a rush, heavy water changes or tank transfers hold the ammonia down for the 2 to 3 weeks it usually takes to cycle.
 
I have no idea what it is that throws it off. But I personnel know the inventor of Amquel which is not Kordon. Kordon just has the rights to sell it under the Kordon name Amquel. He has run tests on the plus and has informed me of this issue, that the Nitrate is still there.
 
Boomer said:
I have no idea what it is that throws it off. But I personnel know the inventor of Amquel which is not Kordon. Kordon just has the rights to sell it under the Kordon name Amquel. He has run tests on the plus and has informed me of this issue, that the Nitrate is still there.
Click to expand...

Weird, seems bizarre that they would advertise that it removes something that it doesn't. But, then again, it doesn't actually remove ammonia, either, just binds it apparently reversibly.

Thanks, guys. TMZ, that's a good call setting up the QT in advance. After this round of fish, if no casualties I'm actually done stocking so that will be nice:)

Best,
Angela
 
I know this is an old thread but some good info here from Prodibio in regards to using Stop ammo (which is a natural plant extract) and Copper. I raised the question recently with Prodibio as I have just set up a QT.

Stop Ammo could have an inhibition reaction with products containing cupper (meaning stop ammo less effective) but not a harmful reaction for the fish, just less activities. What I suggest is to use Stop Ammo with the regular dosage. If your customer see a beginning of increase of ammonia or nitrite level, he could increase the dosage of Stop Ammo to maintain the ammonia and nitrite level in low ratios.

Hope it could help you.

We can put them on the Prodibio website for other people because we already had this question. We have done the same answer I have done to you and no problem appears.

I think the difference here is that it is a natural product

Product is made from the extracts of specially selected plants with the capacity to trap ammonia nitrogen. Saponins have been removed in order to make the plant extract suitable
 
Last edited:
I don't know what's in Stop Ammo and suppose it's proprietary information .

Ammonia detoxifiers usually protonate NH3 to NH4,the much less toxic form ; it is not removed and still shows up as total ammonia in many tests .

The detoxifiers and whatever reactions the promote may effect bound copper meds( those where the free copper is bound to an organic for slow release) by causing them to release bound copper as Cu. in some fashion leading to higher levels of toxic free copper.



Nitrite is of no practical concern in salt water due to the high chloride content of the water.

So. I would not use any copper med along with any detoxifier unless I knew what was in them ,so the likely reactions could be understood. and I don't test nitrite or nitrate in a qt tank.

Personally, I use the med free tank transfer method now for new fish as a prventative quarantine and treatment for ich(crytocaryon irritans) . If needed I use Ammo Lock by API , a detoxifier . It's rarely used though since the 3 day stay in the transfer tanks is usually not long enough for ammonia to form at a detectable level. iIve been doing this for a couple of years now with good results.
 
Only thing I do not like about the transfer method is the stress to the fish.

Manufacturers should do more tests on their products to ascertain the effects on copper especially ammo binding products.
 
Not much stress l,ime . New water adjusted to match sg and temp. Same/very similar aqauscape. Gentle capture is easy after removing the equipment and pvc and partially draining the tank being abandoned. I think of it like a !00% careful water change every 3 days. I've done it dozens of times. Fish don't show any signs of stress and eat readily and immediatley in the new tank.
 
interesting thanks for the info

My system is fallow right now other than inverts and corals and the fish are in QT in copper, not sure if I had velvet or not think it was just WS, only lost tangs and wrasses.

Been 1 week, 5-6 more to go :(
 
Great thanks ;)

For now I am having to go with the treatment route due to uncertainty of velvet. Good info for the future though.
 
AQD_ottawa said:
I think the difference here is that it is a natural product

Product is made from the extracts of specially selected plants with the capacity to trap ammonia nitrogen. Saponins have been removed in order to make the plant extract suitable
Click to expand...

Natural vs unnatural doesn't really help us here; it's the mechanism of action and the interaction of the components with each other. People tend to think of 'natural' as automatically good, but there are plenty of 100% natural toxins around. (hemlock, digitalis, botulinum & curare come to mind)
 
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