Diary of a failed breeder

[waldend]

Hey Walt. I read your whole post at the top of this page and I really like the idea. Simple and effective. Actually I have planned on doing the same thing once I can rearrange my tanks. A couple thoughts on the overflow, mostly dependant upon the amount of debris that will actually go through the overflow rather than settle out. One idea I had was to use a filter sock after the overflow to prevent debris from reaching the sump. If you partially submerged it you could also retrieve the rotifers that did overflow, although I am not sure that the loss would be significant enough to be a concern. It will take testing but I am wondering if a slow drip into the tank would be enough to wash any number of rotifers or debris over. This thought leads to the second version which would be to use a screen on the overflow fine enough to keep the rotifers in. The greenwater would overflow though. Maybe a good opportunity to co-culture with some mandarins? Not sure if the water quality would stay good enough for them or not but with constant greenwater there should be lots of pods! A little of topic there but its a thought.

As for the BBS - it takes mine 24hrs to hatch. They seem to start hatching at about 22 hours and are complete at 24. I have checked it with a microscope and you can see the progress as the eggs get teardrop shaped (the shape of the BBS) shortly before hatching. At the 6am feeding I figure they are still fairly nutritional as they are about 8 hours old. Decapsulating brine makes them more nutritious as they expend less energy to hatch so I hope the 12 hour to empty guideline was not counting this extra allowance. At the 6pm feeding I expect the only value is the enrichment.

As a side question - I have seen reports that the San Francisco Bay eggs are more nutritious than other brands. The quote I saw was the SFB un-enriched had as much nutritional value as other brands after enrichment. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[WDLV]

Hey Walt. I read your whole post at the top of this page and I really like the idea. Simple and effective. Actually I have planned on doing the same thing once I can rearrange my tanks. A couple thoughts on the overflow, mostly dependant upon the amount of debris that will actually go through the overflow rather than settle out. One idea I had was to use a filter sock after the overflow to prevent debris from reaching the sump. If you partially submerged it you could also retrieve the rotifers that did overflow, although I am not sure that the loss would be significant enough to be a concern. It will take testing but I am wondering if a slow drip into the tank would be enough to wash any number of rotifers or debris over. This thought leads to the second version which would be to use a screen on the overflow fine enough to keep the rotifers in. The greenwater would overflow though. Maybe a good opportunity to co-culture with some mandarins? Not sure if the water quality would stay good enough for them or not but with constant greenwater there should be lots of pods! A little of topic there but its a thought.

As for the BBS - it takes mine 24hrs to hatch. They seem to start hatching at about 22 hours and are complete at 24. I have checked it with a microscope and you can see the progress as the eggs get teardrop shaped (the shape of the BBS) shortly before hatching. At the 6am feeding I figure they are still fairly nutritional as they are about 8 hours old. Decapsulating brine makes them more nutritious as they expend less energy to hatch so I hope the 12 hour to empty guideline was not counting this extra allowance. At the 6pm feeding I expect the only value is the enrichment.

As a side question - I have seen reports that the San Francisco Bay eggs are more nutritious than other brands. The quote I saw was the SFB un-enriched had as much nutritional value as other brands after enrichment. Can anyone confirm this?

I definately plan to have a screen on the overflow I don't really care about a few rots going down the drain. My concern is primarily with the fry going down the drain. That said, I am mildly concerned about wasting rots and greenwater. I don't want the li'l buggers to starve, so I hope to control that aspect by regulating flow.

As for brands I have read (Wilkerson's book) that the best stuff goes to hatcheries and that your best bet is to stick with reputable brands. By that logic, SFB brand would be among the more reliable brands to use.
The can I have has about a 3" diameter and is about 4" tall. So I guess it should last me a while!

 

[GreshamH]

It's not the brand that makes SFB more nutritious/smaller, it's the species (Artemia franciscana ) and location. SFB are harvest from the San Francisco Bay. Most other brands are harvested from the Great Salt Lake or elsewhere like China, Russia, etc. The big thing to watch for is hatching rate as those very. We carry a 90% GSL meaning it's a GSL sourced and hatches at 90%. 90% is a pretty high number and very desirable.

Current SFB Artemia are rated @ 80%
The average nauplii length is approximately 425 microns.
Guaranteed Analysis: Protein — 60%, Fat — 24%, Ash — 4.4%, Moisture — 8.5%
Nauplii per gram @ 80% = 280,000
Known for their high lipid levels or HUFA’s, these cysts are 100% Artemia franciscana harvested from the San Francisco Bay salt ponds. The processing technology, using fluidized-bed dryers, results in a shell-free product with excellent separation.

GSL Artemia are rated @ 90% (from Artemia International)
Average nauplii size at hatching is 440 microns.
Guaranteed Analysis: Protein - 60%, Fat - 24%, Ash - 4.4%, Moisture - 8.5%
Nauplii per gram @ 90% = 250,000
Artemia cysts (brine shrimp) are certified virus free by the University of Arizona Aquaculture Pathology Laboratory

 

[WDLV]

I found that can I was looking for. It's INVE. IDK about the quality of that product. I got it on a group buy when a bunch of local reefers were gonna do a batch of Borneman's coral food. I never bothered. So I have this can. It's bigger than I thought. It feels and looks like about 16oz. The can is about 6" tall and 4" diameter.
It doesn't really give a hatch rate or even a container weight/volume but it does give the typical analysis:
Protein 54%
Lipid 9%
Ash 4%
Fiber 6%
Moisture 5% max

Not quite as good in protein and far below the lipid content of the SFB and GSL.

EDIT: Found the hatch rate online. 86%

 

[WDLV]

Was doing some more reading in Wilkerson's book. She discusses skunking of a 125 gallon tank by hooking a larval tank up to it. My system is more than twice that size, but it still concerns me a little. Now granted the system she described had a wet/dry filter. I know these are still popular with some breeders, but I can't help but think that my skimmer could handle it. I've been putting the equalivalent of 6-8 frozen cubes per feeding 2-4 times a day for several weeks with no major effects. A little additional hair algae. That's about it.

The eggs have developing eyes. Black at the moment. I suspect I'll be seeing a little silver in them tomorrow.
These aren't the clearest pictures, but you might be able to make out some eyes in the top row in the second pic.

 

[GreshamH]

I found that can I was looking for. It's INVE. IDK about the quality of that product. I got it on a group buy when a bunch of local reefers were gonna do a batch of Borneman's coral food. I never bothered. So I have this can. It's bigger than I thought. It feels and looks like about 16oz. The can is about 6" tall and 4" diameter.
It doesn't really give a hatch rate or even a container weight/volume but it does give the typical analysis:
Protein 54%
Lipid 9%
Ash 4%
Fiber 6%
Moisture 5% max

Not quite as good in protein and far below the lipid content of the SFB and GSL.

EDIT: Found the hatch rate online. 86%

Sounds like a #1 can to me. How old is it? The hatch rate drops with time. Also how have you stored it, freezer is best. Warmer temps will decrease the hatch rate as well.

FWIW INVE is the worlds largest seller of Artemia. They have more permits and collection spots then anyone. They also owned Ocean Nutrition (now owned by SF Bay Brands).

 

[WDLV]

Its a couple years old. It's been kept in the basement where it stays fairly cool.

 

[GreshamH]

Storage - For best results, store under refrigerated conditions between 0 C and +6 C for up to six months. Otherwise, store in a cool place where temperatures will not exceed 28 C for up to 30 days. Keep out of direct sunlight.

You're going to get a low hatch rate I am afraid. I brought out a 1 yer old can of 90% GSL and I would have to say the hatch rate really dropped from the 90%. Guessing as I did not count, I would say the hatch was like 50%

 

[WDLV]

I'm planning to get a hatchery in the next few days. If it looks bad I'll pick up some SFB cysts and do a visual comparison. Not that I doubt what you're telling me in the least. I'm just cheap. :lolspin:

I'll probably pick up a test tube full anyway.

 

[billsreef]

RMI does not cry-preserve anything Bill. We called our products that contained glycerin "cry-preserved) but we no longer make that (been over 5 years since we did).

I was remembering too far back :lol:

Either that or my memory is going with my hair

Would a paint strainer work?

I'm pretty sure a paint strainer is much larger than 40 microns, but at the price of them it might be worth a closer look.

On that note, do most people syphon the older ones off once they are a day or so old? My thought is to alternate use of the BBS and Oto A every other day.

I'd go nuts trying to siphon off left overs from the day before. So I don't worry about them, and just add fresh every day The trick is to make sure they always have plenty of food during the daylight hours, so I'd add BBS every day, and supplement with the Oto A a couple times per day.

 

[billsreef]

You're going to get a low hatch rate I am afraid. I brought out a 1 yer old can of 90% GSL and I would have to say the hatch rate really dropped from the 90%. Guessing as I did not count, I would say the hatch was like 50%

Several years ago, when a former supplier screwed me and left me scrambling for a new supply, I broke out a batch of GSL from home. It was a batch I brought for a school project my daughter did several years earlier that was sitting in my freezer. While I got a good enough hatch rate to see me through, it was likely no more than about 50%. Lot's of unhatched eggs.

BTW, my storage routine at the lab is to keep my primary stock in a freezer. The can in current use is kept in the refrigerator, and fresh can from the freezer moved to the fridge the day before expected use.

 

[GreshamH]

Several years ago, when a former supplier screwed me and left me scrambling for a new supply, I broke out a batch of GSL from home. It was a batch I brought for a school project my daughter did several years earlier that was sitting in my freezer. While I got a good enough hatch rate to see me through, it was likely no more than about 50%. Lot's of unhatched eggs.

BTW, my storage routine at the lab is to keep my primary stock in a freezer. The can in current use is kept in the refrigerator, and fresh can from the freezer moved to the fridge the day before expected use.

We're very careful at our facility with how we handle them... they're all in our freezer. I keep all mine in the freezer as well. Like you if I am doing continual hatches I'll keep a smaller amount in the fridge.

IMO the worst place to by them is in a store that puts them on the shelf. Those spend most their life in far too warm of conditions both at the store and the distributor.

 

[WDLV]

IMO the worst place to by them is in a store that puts them on the shelf. Those spend most their life in far too warm of conditions both at the store and the distributor.

That doesn't leave me a lot of options. Particularly not locally.

 

[GreshamH]

I don't think many have access to a local venue to purchase properly stored Artemia which is why online rules that game. Plenty of the online people take proper care of them (IE. Brine Shrimp Direct, Artemia International, Reed Mariculture, Aquatic EcoSystems, etc)

 

[WDLV]

I'll see how the suff I have works I guess and adjust fire if necessary.

 

[somdinwong]

OK. Thanks. Note to self:
1. Week two = Meta
2. Week three = Have fun!

just in time to hatch out the next batch

 

[Iwishihadgills]

Would tonsa pod cultures be to small for the fry? They are like 5x higer in nutrition then rots/brine

 

[landlord]

How many days have the eggs been on the glass as of now Walt??? Got to be getting close. It was 10 days with my Tomatos

Kurt

 

[WDLV]

Started my rotifer culture this morning. During which I noticed that the flower pot that used to be in the melanopus tank had a dried out clutch of about 300-400 eggs.

 

[landlord]

Would tonsa pod cultures be to small for the fry? They are like 5x higer in nutrition then rots/brine

Wouldn't be too small since they are larger than rots and still smaller then BBS but what a chore.....but good nutrition for sure.

Makes me wish I didn't have a full time job..