Difficult and Special Care Species List (help me edit please!)

I think it's a super reference for anyone who is considering "taking the plunge" on any of these species. As I believe it was intended.
Obviously there will be exceptions here and there but as all advanced fish keepers should know if you are serious about keeping a difficult species and breaking the mould (as some dedicated few have with the orangespot file fish, for example). Then they will have to go way beyond what this list offers, undertaking hours of research upon which they will find the correct information they seek etc.
If folk (even one) goes onto this list and makes an informed decision to not go out and get that fish or this fish because it will have a very low chance of survival, then it has done it's job. the debate that has gone on requires a new thread IMO as it takes away from this one.

All the species on the list can be kept in captivity given the right circumstances, that is not the point of the list in my mind.
 
Well, Peter, I'm not sure that anyone has ever said the orange spot is an easy fish to keep. Matt certainly doesn't in his article. I've conversed with several people about them and always try to include the statements:

This was the hardest fish I've ever tried. It takes huge commitments of time, money (for foods and water changes), and effort. It needs to eat at least four times a day and you need to watch it eat. If you can't provide these things and aren't prepared to feed it live acros for the rest of its life if things don't work out, then don't try to keep the fish.

I don't think anyone ever claimed that it was an easy fish or that it should be stocked at PetCo. But that's not what your list is about. None of the fish on your list should be stocked at PetCo. A beginner shouldn't attempt _any_ of the fish on your list. So, shifting fish around in the categories on your list really shouldn't be construed as encouraging beginners to purchase the species, IMO.

I think the problem is that I am now confused about what your categories actually mean. My understanding was that "Fish to Be Avoided" essentially meant "Impossible." And my understanding was that "Fish Best Left For Experienced Or Knowledgable Hobbyists" meant "fish that can be kept given a whole lot of time, dedication, effort, knowledge, and luck, but if you are not willing to do whatever it takes to keep them then leave them alone."

All the species on the list can be kept in captivity given the right circumstances, that is not the point of the list in my mind.

If that is true, then I don't understand the point of having two categories. So, maybe this boils down to me not understanding what the titles of the categories mean. Given that the entire list is saying, "Don't Buy These Unless You Do a Lot of Research," what's the difference between the first two?

So, I was suggesting merely that these files now belong in the second category. There's now a published protocol for trying to keep them and it's pretty obvious that there's nothing magical in a coral polyp that keeps these animals healthy. And, even if there were, it's now possible for someone really dedicated to farm enough coral to give these guys a steady supply. So, now I'm back to: I believe that advances in food available and coral farming the last few years merits changing categories for harlequin filefish, if I have a handle on what the categories mean.
 
[

Anyhow, those are just semantics. I really didn't want to get into this here as I made it pretty clear from the start that I didn't want species discussion in this thread and was really only wanting help editing the list. But, the thread has been derailed for too long and too many times to hope for someone pointing out a mispelled word at this point. No big deal, I'll live :p

[/B]

I emphasise with you---I went through the same senerio when I created the tang list and a thread to debate beside it--it just didn't work so

http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=341

Peter I drafted a blog for you---the blog is fully edited at all times unlike a thread
It is also able to be debated ect at the bottom of it--you the editor have control over the comments
Therefore you are control of keeping it on topic and able to act on suggestions or delete unwarranted comments.
As threads get longer they tend to get off topic and people don't like wading through them ect ect

Hoping this helps
Scott
at your request this blog can be deleted and or turned over to you
http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=408

BTW
pictures of the species might be good here and they can be added as easy as copying and pasting.
 
BTW, I do have to apologize. I did miss before that you were just looking for proofreading and not for substantive editorial suggestions. But you also said:

Debate is a good thing IMO.

So, that's why I chimed in again. Cheers!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15008374#post15008374 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
You've done little but create a strawman out of my original statement. In addition, I could nitpick the FAQ you came up with to death, which I feel you have done with me in addition to creating that straw man. I won't because I understand the basic intentions and believe most of what is said in the FAQ to be generally true.
Peter, I would love nothing more than for you to critique our (it was actually written equally by five people -- I just posted it) work with the FAQ in the hope that it produces a more accurate document. I was just hoping you would be open to the same constructive criticism.

Matt:cool:
 
Hey Peter,

Awesome list you've made, thanks! I think you might consider elaborating on the unicorn tang line or possibly adding vlamingi tang to that list. I'm no expert but after seeing adult Naso vlamingi swimming back and forth in a 30' tank at a public aquarium it makes me cringe whenever i see them for sale at a LFS. Its one of those fish you look at and its really beautiful but you just know its doomed because whoever buys it probably does not have the means to keep it alive for its full lifespan. Just a suggestion and again thanks for the list. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15009941#post15009941 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MattL
Peter, I would love nothing more than for you to critique our (it was actually written equally by five people -- I just posted it) work with the FAQ in the hope that it produces a more accurate document. I was just hoping you would be open to the same constructive criticism.

Matt:cool:

I am totally open to constructive cricism and have been for the many years this list has been going around. I will however defend things on the list that I feel strongly about and when I feel the person criticising is wrong. Sorry, but if you think Matt Pedersen's findings means this fish is not a corallivore or even an obligate corallivore (again, in nature), you're interpreting his article incorrectly.

Lastly, I think you mistook what I was getting at with the statement you quoted. I don't want to critique the FAQ nor do I think it should be critiqued.
 
Is it a corallivore? Yes. Gut content analysis from the wild shows coral polyps in the belly of these fish.

Is it a corallivore by necessity (obligate = "by necessity")? Yes. I believe that in the wild it is not able to compete well enough for food to get much other than coral polyps and possibly also coral mucus (though I doubt that would show up in the gut contents). I've seen them feed much more on mucus than on polyps, but I believe the male was hungry enough when he came in to have consumed some of a large acro frag. That event happened at the LFS where these fish spent 60 days in my care while I got a system ready for them and the last time I saw the frag, after I'd removed the fish to my home, it was still alive.

Is it necessary for the fish to eat coral polyps? No. The species can clearly survive and thrive without corals in its diet. The fish have been in my system for months without corals of any kind and are spawning.

Lots of different ways that word "necessary" [Edit: or "obligate"] gets thrown around with this species of fish (and other coral eaters), so it's a good idea to get clear on the way it's being used.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15009814#post15009814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"
BTW, I do have to apologize. I did miss before that you were just looking for proofreading and not for substantive editorial suggestions. But you also said:



So, that's why I chimed in again. Cheers!

No worries, and yes, debate is a good thing. Was simply hoping to keep the debate within the sticky and use this thread primarily for editing. But, it's really no big deal and I'm not upset about it.
 
In my opinion O. longirostris should always be kept with SPS corals. Although it gladly eats offered foods, it's interesting to observe it's constant feeding of coral surface.

I have observed this fish tens of hours in my SPS tank and I have never seen it eat a polyp. It does eat from the coral surface but always tissue between the polyps. It is also very selective, swimming between coral branches and constantly looking for something to eat. It does not just nib at any part of coral. This has led me to believe it mainly eats mucus and/or organisms from the surface.

And no visible damage to corals. Actually, his "home", a green "slimer" Acropora, is one of the healthiest and fastest growing SPS I have ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15014454#post15014454 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"
Is it a corallivore? Yes. Gut content analysis from the wild shows coral polyps in the belly of these fish.

Is it a corallivore by necessity (obligate = "by necessity")? Yes. I believe that in the wild it is not able to compete well enough for food to get much other than coral polyps and possibly also coral mucus (though I doubt that would show up in the gut contents). I've seen them feed much more on mucus than on polyps, but I believe the male was hungry enough when he came in to have consumed some of a large acro frag. That event happened at the LFS where these fish spent 60 days in my care while I got a system ready for them and the last time I saw the frag, after I'd removed the fish to my home, it was still alive.

Is it necessary for the fish to eat coral polyps? No. The species can clearly survive and thrive without corals in its diet. The fish have been in my system for months without corals of any kind and are spawning.

Lots of different ways that word "necessary" [Edit: or "obligate"] gets thrown around with this species of fish (and other coral eaters), so it's a good idea to get clear on the way it's being used.

I've never really liked the word obligate, which is why it wasn't used on this list. I've seen too many fish slowly starve over the course of a year or two due to the lack of some unkinown nutrient. So again, I feel it's a hasty conclusion to throw out the possibility that there isn't some essential nutrient in coral. That said, I've never look at any of the corallivores as needing coral as their diet, simply that it's quite difficult to get most of them to eat anything else.
 
Hey Peter, I hope you don't mind. I was contacted by Matt regarding this thread and he asked me to send the following to you:

Having been banned from RC several years ago over my disagreement with a rule that's since been changed, I've asked Ummfish to post this message for me.

Peter is largely right on with his intepretation of "oblitatory" in my opinion...i.e. competitive pressures in the wild may force the Harlequin Filefish to corals as a food source as it's otherwise inable to compete (in the wild) over other food sources. It has been demonstrated through field research that when coral reefs die off, the Harlequin Filefish vanishes from the reef extremely rapidly. The research also suggested that they do not simply move to a new reef, but that they actualy die off very quickly.

Early in my care, my own observations on coral feeding suggested that maybe they didn't actually feed on the polyps themselves....that certainly has been proven false in some of my later observations. However, there is some truth that I think Ummfish first pointed out to me last year - their natural diet according to the scientific literature also includes "algae". And they certainly DO feed on algae in my tanks on occasion, especially early on. But in truth, the revelation of the research above proves that without live corals in the wild, this fish is unable to live....it's not like they can suddenly shift to feed on algae exclusively when the coral reefs die.

I chose my wording in the CORAL article very carefully. Give the article multiple reads if you must to get the full impact, and if you have questions, find me on some other forum (I'm a member of most) and shoot me an email or PM - I'm happy to discuss. Frankly, when I wrote such an article, I took on the responsiblity of being a "caretaker" of the information I presented, precisely so it isn't misinterpreted. If my experience makes me the ambassador for this species, if that's my obligation as a result of my "promotion", I fully accept that role. The last thing I or anyone else would want is for people to get the wrong impression of this very challenging species.

In the introduction of my article, I wrote "Only later does the hobbyist learn that the Harlequin Filefish is an obligate corallivore..". Later, under the "Dieatry Myths" section, I wrote, "we must address the core believe that [Harlequin Filefish] will die without live coral flesh in their diet...This is simply not true." Both of these statements appear to be completely true and yet are not mutually exclusive. Fish aren't going to live and spawn and produce viable offspring if there is some critical element missing in their diet....nor are the captive bred offspring going to survive without that critical element. I believe my longest term fish are coming up on 1.5 years in captivity for me personally? They're certainly not starving, all skin and bones. I believe the theory of a "critical nutritional element" for Harlequin Filefish is disproven, as is the fact that in the wild, they are most certainly obligate corallivores.

Personal annecdotes from others in the field have suggested that the freshly settled juvenies of various Corallivorous Butterflyfish species can be trapped at that stage, and will eagerly accept perpared foods (i.e. flake) and can be grown out to marketable size without issues. This too, suggests that coral does not hold some magical nutrient that the fish must have in order to thrive. And that again, completely jives with Peter's comment above - corallivorous fish are not very eager to accept something else as a substitute. Training Harlequins onto prepared foods is very hard in my experience, but it is doable and repeatable.

There are two other, more common possiblities that can explain the dietary issues this species can face, and I borrow these from the Seahorse keepers. Quite simply, if you don't feed a Seahorse multiple times per day, it will starve, no matter how much food it gets at that one sitting. So too, I fear, for the Harlequin Filefish. That certainly seems to be the case. The other possibility - Worms. If there fish is burdened by GI-tract parasites, these could easily explain nutritional deficiencies and wasting away despite heavy appetites. It's only a theory, but worming Harlequin Files might prove beneficial to their long term care.

Still another possiblity, not borrowed from Seahorse keepers, is the possiblity of a fish being drug caught. This is certainly a fish that might be difficult to extract from a live coral head without drugs. We all know that even if a drug caught fish survives to make it to your tank, it quite certainly can sustain internal organ damage that in the shortish term, can cause the fish to ultimately not survive despite good appetite and demeanor. Any one of these causes can explain the wasting away for a healthy fish. Of course, that assumes that you GET a healthy fish to start with, and in truth, the MAIN cultprit with the Harlequin Filefish is that too often, it already has one foot in the grave by the time it makes it to your LFS. No different that most Mandarins. The less time this fish spends in the chain of custody between harvest and you, the better.

We also should address that captive lifespans for this fish as a WC specimen have been shown to typically be in the range of 3-5 years based on other hobbyists successes, with or without live coral in the diet. I think it's foolish at this point to assume whether to know if a one year lifespan on a WC adult fish is good or bad, given that we don't have any data on the natural lifespan to begin with. There are species like Neon Gobies that live a year, or Pearly Jawfish that typically live 2-3 years in the wild. For all we know, a WC Harlequin Filefish might already be 1-3 years old when caught...if the natural lifespan is 4 years, and we keep the fish alive for a year, perhaps we're doing "GREAT". Of course, just as easily, it could be that this species could live decades like some clownfish are known to. In that case, 1 year is pretty darn bad. We simply do not know the wild lifespan, so we should refrain from judging 1 year's success as good or bad at this point.

What my article didn't cover was the reasons for my losses, and I in fact purposely chose NOT to disclose those reasons because they might actually provide further encouragement to hobbyists who weren't ready for this species. For example, if I told you guys all that the 5 losses out of 17 were fish that died in a heater failure or power outage, that would be fundamentally different than if I told you guys they all died from starvation. While neither scenario represents the true causes for the 5 losses, the fact is, I can personally explain and justify these losses, and I do not hold these losses against the fish's reputation (i.e. the losses I encurred are not necessarily the fault of the fish's needs, but the fault of the caretaker and chain of custody). So, to have explained these losses would likely have only served to minimize the true risk with this species and encourage people to take the same risk that I did. So, better to say simpy that I lost 30% of the Harlequin Filefish I tried. Better to say that as a WC fish it is very sensitive and demanding. This is very much an EXPERT ONLY species, and what didn't make it into the article is that at the time of writing it, ever hobbyist who has had success with the species at that time probably had a decade or more of hobby experience. So think about that. Not for the newbie, and not for someone with 2-3 years of experience. Only for the very dedicated and experienced hobbyist.

Writing the CORAL article for me was an easy choice, but for CORAL Editor James Lawrence, he was very careful to make sure that my article did not paint this species in any new light that would lead to hundreds of people rushing out to try it. For anyone interested in a bit more of that, I'd suggest the article Ret Talbot did talking to me & Witt about our back-to-back articles on the breeding of what are "expert only" fish, and the "ethics" of articles such as the one in question - http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/resources.asp?show=373

Judging by the minimal level of inquiries I've had, and the fact that the only really solid inquiry has come from a professional aquarist and a public aquarium, I'm pleased. I hope this means we acheived our goal in presenting the info without creating a surge in demand for the species. So too, the article improved the sales practices at one of the two online vendors that sells this species, and for that, I can only be thrilled! It is certainly better that my experiences be out there than not, if only that more folks with cite it, and thus more folks who "inadvertently" purchase the fish might have a better shot at keeping it alive. And yes, I certainly do hope that my experience leads to breeders all around the world producing captive bred Harlequins, because the captive bred babies are nothing short of spectacular fish that readily take prepared foods and certainly could be easily kept by moderately experienced aquarists ....that's the kind of fish that fish breeders need if they're going to stay in business and help us save our hobby.

FWIW,

Matt (formerly MWP ;) )

Let me know if you'd like his contact information in case you'd like to continue the conversation.
 
Will respond and probably get his info from you later, in the process of setting up a system and it's taking up a ton of time. Thanks for forwarding his thoughts and it seems we view the fish similarly.
 
I think one has to consider the makeup of the audience - people reading this forum and keeping saltwater tanks fall into several categories -

1. Casual and transient - most take up the hobby, get interested for a while, and leave after a year or 3 or 4. (Just look at Craigslist or Ebay)

2. Others get more serious, read a lot more, and get some success - but mostly, have superficial knowledge, and much of their success is from luck, and their knowledge is anecdotal or just repeating of something they heard. They are also typically thinking about bigger tanks, but stuck with smaller ones, and their fond plans for massive tanks usually don't materialize. They still enjoy themselves, though and stay in the hobby.

3. A very small number are really obsessed, spend a long time and a lot of effort, and end up with genuine expertise and knowledge.

4. Professionally trained with advanced degrees in various biological fields, who also get into keeping tanks at home.

5. Professional posters. Some will debate minutiae about equipment, and be more interested in the cubic feet per minute air drawing of a skimmer than actually keeping or looking at a coral. Ken Rockwell of the photo world calls this category the "Equipment Measurbator" in his excellent satirical essay - http://kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm

I think we would agree that the vast majority are in Category 1. Most of the rest are in Category 2 (but many of those think they are in Category 3 (while some of us have come to accept our failings!!)

This list is very useful for Categories 1 and 2. Categories 3 and 4 are tiny in number, and are the kind of people who open frontiers. They are the kind of people who kept SW fish in the 60s and everyone told them they were nuts. They make lots of mistakes, but discover very interesting things. They break the rules in this list, but there are not many of them, and in the great scheme of the world driftnets and cyanide and toxic dumping are killing more fish than these people would in several lifetimes.

Category 5 bother some people, but why not? If that is fun for them, go for it.

Anyway, for the real world, which is almost all Category 1 plus a few Cat. 2 - this is list is really valuable, and should come glued to the front glass of all new aquariums.

Category 3 are very interesting and valuable people - they really aren't normal, you know. But, I would argue that they should be left alone to do as they wish - which they aren't in some places such as Germany, where they can't get their hands on many creatures because of import laws. (although those laws keep the zillions of category 1 people and bad LFS from wasting animals - but I digress to a separate topic).

Which brings me to the main point. It really is a crazy thing to do - to keep these strange and beautiful animals in little boxes - but, the main justification for allowing this curious hobby is that it changes attitudes. Years ago things in the ocean were hidden - they could be eaten or exploited or harpooned etc - and nobody cared. But, when people see these things in their friends homes, they suddenly realize that the ocean isn't a vast wasteland. In other words, the creatures in our tanks are martyrs for their kind. Their freedom is sacrificed but maybe someday we will all decide to stop wrecking this part of the planet.

Or not. But at least we really TRY to be nice to them!

thanks - I feel better now. I really shouldn't drink so much coffee.
And thanks for a fantastic list.
 
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And, just to be clear, I have my feet firmly planted in Category 2. I used to think I might one day get to #3, but I am happily resigned to my proper lot in life.

Fun to read what the #3 people say, though.

Just don't try this at home, kids!!
 
WOW IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU REALLY KNOW YOUR STUFF. I HAD TO LEARN THE HARD WAY WITH SOME OF THE THINGS LISTED. IF I ONLY KNEW THIS THREAD WAS OUT THERE BEFORE I WOULD BE $300 RICHER LOL.
 
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