karimwassef
Active member
The point isn't to exterminate the dinos. It is to develop an immune system by introducing their predators. They will always exist in small concentrations, but never reach infection or plague levels.
Dinoflagellates.
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karimwassef
Active member
I wonder if a large water change from a mature tank will work. The idea is to extract as much of the dinos and then simultaneously introduce the micro biome of the healthy tank.
The closest similarity is when people with compromised micro biomes receive fecal transplants from very healthy donors. This introduces the missing bacteria and results in a significant improvement in health.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy
The closest similarity is when people with compromised micro biomes receive fecal transplants from very healthy donors. This introduces the missing bacteria and results in a significant improvement in health.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy
The amount of free swimming organisms of the size of a dino or bigger is sadly very very small in our reeftanks...
Sincerely, Dennis
EDIT: Today I'll buy some phytoplankton and start the breeding of a few cultures.
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dcforester1
Member
I was wondering if someone could help me out.I have had a successful reef tank for many years and just upgraded recently to a reefer 450. I sold all coral except a few pieces. I used all my old rock and added new sand. My new tank looked great for about 2 months, and then my glass started getting could, and slimy. All the sudden my rock was covered with long brown stringy snot like substance that I would have to blow off 20min after lights were on. It started to attach to any piece on the coral and they would close slowly killing them. My sand it covered and its like a matt. If I blow it of it floats like stings of bubbles. I tried Chemi Clean and that did nothing. I just went out today and bought a new CUC because mine is all dead. This has been going on for about 3months, and I am not sure but this past week seems not as bad, or I am getting use to it LOL. How can I be sure of what I have?
TI Derek
TI Derek
Hi Derek, a microscope (even one for kids) is useful for identification, because you have to differentiate if you have a dinoflagellates, diatoms or a golden algae (Chrysophyceae) infestation. They look very similar.
Sincerely, Dennis
EDIT: It's also possible to have a mixed infestation, I have a mix of dinoflagellates (ostreopsis sp. and an unidentified dino type) and some diatoms.
EDIT2: Without a microscope you can identify:
Cyanobacteria: By adding a sample of them into strong clear alcohol with an alcohol by volume greater than 40% (e.g. vodka) -> if there are cyanos they will color the alcohol red.
Dinoflagellates: By rubbing a sample of them between your fingers -> Dinoflagellates have a distinctive awful odor. Please wash your hands after this method or use disposable gloves, some Dinoflagellates containing toxins!
Sincerely, Dennis
EDIT: It's also possible to have a mixed infestation, I have a mix of dinoflagellates (ostreopsis sp. and an unidentified dino type) and some diatoms.
EDIT2: Without a microscope you can identify:
Cyanobacteria: By adding a sample of them into strong clear alcohol with an alcohol by volume greater than 40% (e.g. vodka) -> if there are cyanos they will color the alcohol red.
Dinoflagellates: By rubbing a sample of them between your fingers -> Dinoflagellates have a distinctive awful odor. Please wash your hands after this method or use disposable gloves, some Dinoflagellates containing toxins!
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It isn't uncommon for new tanks in the running-in phase (I think your tank is in that phase, even though you use your old live rocks but you have only a few corals in that tank = the length of the running-in phase increases plus no competition against dinoflagellates) that a temporary dinoflagellates infestation can occur. If that is the case the dinos will disappear after a while. I've read often about it in discussion boards.
Sincerely, Dennis
Sincerely, Dennis
dcforester1
Member
Than you you for the reply. I set this tank up and it was going to be my "last tank" so let make it a nice one. I have spent a ton of money on it and at this point ready to take it all down. What you said sounds like what might be happening. I have a huge bloom, and was actually embarrassed to have people stop by, and the has been going on about 3 months, the last week or so they do seem to be decreasing. I only have fish, as all corals are dead. I was wondering if I should dose peroxide, or just try and wit it out at this point? I have a dosing pumps, so it wouldn't be an issue.
Thanks derek
Thanks derek
If you have no corals in this tank and also no anemones then I would try the lights out method. Corals are weakened by the dino toxins and there is a chance to kill them with this method. A dying anemone can release toxins into the water that can crash your tanks ecology. Not all types of dinos need light, some feed on other organisms but its worth a try.
Cover the tank with several layers of blankets or something like that, the more dark the tank is, the more it will impact on the dino population. Then wait for 3-5 days, in that time don't switch on the light in the tank or remove the blankets, not even for seconds! Sometimes you need to do a second lights out phase to wipe them out.
If the dinos are killed the dino clusters will begin to change its color from brown to grey/white. Prepare yourself than to deal with some Cyanobacterias (siphon them out) but they are nothing compared to the dino infestation.
Sincerely, Dennis
EDIT: There are reports that only one measure is often not enough to defeat dinos. A combination of two different methods has a higher success rate. About dosing peroxide: I can't help you with that sorry, but be careful if you use this stuff.
Cover the tank with several layers of blankets or something like that, the more dark the tank is, the more it will impact on the dino population. Then wait for 3-5 days, in that time don't switch on the light in the tank or remove the blankets, not even for seconds! Sometimes you need to do a second lights out phase to wipe them out.
If the dinos are killed the dino clusters will begin to change its color from brown to grey/white. Prepare yourself than to deal with some Cyanobacterias (siphon them out) but they are nothing compared to the dino infestation.
Sincerely, Dennis
EDIT: There are reports that only one measure is often not enough to defeat dinos. A combination of two different methods has a higher success rate. About dosing peroxide: I can't help you with that sorry, but be careful if you use this stuff.
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Mikefromaz
New member
I absolutely agree with Karimwassef. My dino war began as the result of a marine algae killer. Even though I followed the directions completely, the bio system was trashed allowing the dinosaur to start. UV sterilizer is a MUST. Jump starting the competition with as much live phyto/pods as you can get will tip the nutrient consumption back in favor of the good guy critters. Be ready for a lot of skimmer action as the dead dinos pile up, otherwise you are just setting up the next boutique if you don't. Good luck.
PorkchopExpress
New member
So his tank had no corals in it? Just fish and clean up crew and he still got dinos? I'm still debating whether I believe all tanks have dinos or if it has to be brought in from an infected tank.
One thing I noticed when I did have dinos was that my sand also hardened in several places. I didn't really know what to attribute that to, I thought maybe it had something to do with my calcium.
Budman422
New member
When I had dinos I could take and put it in another tank . The other tank had no dinos and it would disapeare. I still believe it is an imbalance and lack of diversity. I am dino free in my tank for about 11 months. I do water changes once a month. But I do not run gfo or carbon anymore. I also still feed heavy.
dcforester1
Member
How can I ID them? I am friendly with a Marine Bio teacher, and could get a sample to someone with a microscope. If I cover the tank should I just pour some food under the blanket, or canI uncover to feed? I had an anemone, but hint seen him in about a month. I am not sure if the nastiness killed him.
Thanks Derek
Thanks Derek
Thanks to the dino outbreak I finally catched an small eunice sp worm (maybe 4 inches) I wanted to get rid of, for a long time. It wandered along the front glas when tank lights switched on. It had a red colour and looked very similar to a bristle worm, but five antennas on its head, feed shaped prickles to move fast on the ground and spitting out a sticky saliva-like secretion are unmistakeable ^^ . The dino infestation must have an effect on worms too, they wander around more than usual during lights out phase. I didn't know there are so many spaghetti worms in my tank. Maybe a low oxygen level and/or the dino toxins are the reasons for it?
Sincerely, Dennis
EDIT: @Derek to uncover the tank for feeding is a risk that some dinos could survive the measure but if it is only for short time, though to pour it under the blanket is safer.
I think you should also turn your skimmer wet, oxygen level can drop significantly during the 3-5 days.
For identification under a microscope this site is really helpful: http://www.algaeid.com/identification/
Also this poster can be helpful: http://www.marinebiodiversity.ca/cm...astal-waters-of-atlantic-canada/dino.jpg/view
it's odd, I've in mind that there was a higher magnification of this poster so you can read the latin names of the dino types.
EDIT2: I also have to say I had no fish in my tank when I have done this measure, I would wait for a second opinion before starting with the lights out method. I'm concerned about your fish.
Sincerely, Dennis
EDIT: @Derek to uncover the tank for feeding is a risk that some dinos could survive the measure but if it is only for short time, though to pour it under the blanket is safer.
I think you should also turn your skimmer wet, oxygen level can drop significantly during the 3-5 days.
For identification under a microscope this site is really helpful: http://www.algaeid.com/identification/
Also this poster can be helpful: http://www.marinebiodiversity.ca/cm...astal-waters-of-atlantic-canada/dino.jpg/view
it's odd, I've in mind that there was a higher magnification of this poster so you can read the latin names of the dino types.
EDIT2: I also have to say I had no fish in my tank when I have done this measure, I would wait for a second opinion before starting with the lights out method. I'm concerned about your fish.
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dcforester1
Member
I haven't introduced anything into this tank in the last 2-3years. the only thing new was a tank, and it was brand new so it couldn't have been contaminated.
Derek
Derek
Quiet_Ivy
New member
Hey Derek, sorry you have to be in this thread.
If you look in this forum, Sonnus has a method of differentiating dinos and cyano that works really well. You basically take a big sample of the snot with a cup of water, shake the living heck out of it, strain it through a paper towel into a jar and wait. If it's dinos they will reform into a ball that floats in the middle of the jar. It is actually a bit alarming but biologically very cool.
If you're doing lights out RUN CARBON. I lost all my fish because I triggered a mass die-off of dinos during a blackout. (And the dinos came back to add insult to injury) Be prepared to get your fish out if something goes wrong.
hth
ivy
Quiet_Ivy
New member
I've given chaeto clumps to people and they didn't get dinos. I didn't know what I had at the time, I'm not mean enough to stick someone with the plague. I had only corals and cuc when I had them. IMHO all tanks have dinos. They make up a huge percentage of plankton in the ocean, they are ubiquitous in all bodies of water fresh and salty. I've seen them under the microscope on my houseplants that get untreated tap water.
Fish are quite likely to have dinos. Marine velvet (amyloodinium) is caused by a dino for example. I'm reading an interesting paper on dinos now where the author has detected *still intact, living* dino cysts in excrement from copepods and shellfish so it's not farfetched to imagine a fish bringing them to the aquarium.
I'm really interested in this sand issue, I have it too and didn't connect it with dinos. That's 3 of us, anyone else? Of course it could very well be unrelated.
hth
ivy
I also have that hardened substrate but only in my 6 gallon tank (running since 2007, never had a dino outbreak). I've read that the excretions (low pH) of substrate living organisms can dissolve substrate consisting of calcium and magnesium. After that the dissolved calcium and magnesium begin to grow as crystals in the substrate that leads to the hardened substrate we have. Do the shops in the US/Canada sell so called "critterpacks"(containing substrate living creatures) to prevent that hardening?
Sincerely, Dennis
Sincerely, Dennis
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karimwassef
Active member
that's the result of bacteria forming sugar like compounds around themselves.. not really creating calcium crystals... The answer is the same though, worms...
PorkchopExpress
New member
i think it's pretty important, at least morally, to figure out how tanks are getting infected so that we know if we can share/sell our livestock...i have 2 frag racks full of fully encrusted frags, not to mention a refugium full of chaeto, that i've been holding on to for almost a year now because i don't know if they will infect someone else's tank and i don't want to take that risk
my theory is that not every tank has them because we see a lot of ULNS tanks out there that has never had them...zeo tanks come into mind...i think they have to be introduced somehow by way of livestock or rock or whatever and people can have them for years and not know because they may have formed cysts, only waiting for the right time to bloom...i just don't buy the theory that they come from nowhere and all tanks simply have them, i think they need to be introduced somehow and once you have them you will always have them so sharing/selling livestock simply spreads it around
