karimwassef
Active member
Add lots of soft corals??
Dinoflagellates.
- Thread starter DNA
- Start date
karimwassef
Active member
Taricha- any interest in running the CC experiment?
StrangeDejavu
Member
Interesting. I don't own any Lugol's products or anything containing Iodine that i'm aware of, outside of the salt. I sort of attributed the bloom to a product I was using as well. For two months, my tank was fine. Then I noticed my Bangaii had what looked like excess slime coating hanging from his lip, which I assumed had been from his recent fit of glass surfing. Worried it might turn into an infection, I started soaking his food in Seachem GarlicGuard and VitaChem. Rather than straining the food, I dumped it all in to my tank with the pumps off. I did this every day for a week or so, and that's when I first noticed the first bit of slime on my sandbed. The next day, there was a long string of it on the rockwork. But what I found peculiar was the fact that it was only growing directly beneath the spot where I dumped in the food, GarlicGuard and Vitachem every day. Here's the ingredients for both, in case there's some kind of common link:
Garlic Guard: Garlic Extract - 9900 ppm, Allicin (active ingredient) - 130 ppm, Vitamin C - 1000 ppm
VitaChem: Ascorbic acid, marine algae (ulva and kelp), plankton extract, biotin, soluble brewer's yeast, cobalamine concentrate, L-Lysine HCL, d-alpha tocopherol, inositol folic acid, and hydrochloride monohydrate.
May be related, may not be, but I figured it might be worth noting.
Acromaniac
Member
StrangeDejavu apparently the main addition of iodine without the addition lugols is food, especially algae foods.
So algae use iodine, so maybe growing macro algae will help outcompete the dino from iodine, maybe only dead algae introduces the iodine but live algae uses it?
I have seen bromine depletes iodine, but again this feeds dino. I would prefer to try and find a chemical to deplete iodine if possible as growing macro for me is not an option.
So algae use iodine, so maybe growing macro algae will help outcompete the dino from iodine, maybe only dead algae introduces the iodine but live algae uses it?
I have seen bromine depletes iodine, but again this feeds dino. I would prefer to try and find a chemical to deplete iodine if possible as growing macro for me is not an option.
Sure. Worth a shot.
Why do you think your sps reacted like they did. Any theories?
Hmm.... Iodine.
I haven't run across much of anything on dinos needing iodine for any reason, or microalgae/phytoplankton need for I either.
...but
a while back I posted in this thread about how my sandbed dinos (amphidinium mostly) collapsed when I ran lots of Chaeto & Caulerpa in the display bright light while keeping high N and P and avoiding trace element additions. My idea being that the macro outcompeted Dinos for some trace element they needed to enough of an extent that the dinos couldn't outgrow their predators.
I then added a mix of a bunch of trace elements and got the dinos to increase again on the sandbed for a short time.
My best guess (and some evidence but not super conclusive) was that it was Iron.
But Iodine also would follow the same pattern, could be taken up by macroalgae.
a couple of other people have also noted that feeding Macroalgae caused their existing dino populations to really bloom. Macros have a ton of vitamins and trace elements.
Again no idea if Dinos concentrate Iodine in their cells (quick search turns up nothing useful) or why they might want to. Seen two suggestions for why other photosynthetic stuff might concentrate I.
1. It makes them taste bad to discourage grazing (I think dinos have that covered, but who's to say they don't make toxins AND try to taste bad on top of it?)
2. The form of Iodine stored in the cells is a strong reducer, and can protect the cell from oxidation. This one particularly interests me at the moment. I hadn't thought to connect Iodine dosing with variability in how much peroxide it takes to inhibit dinos.
Cobalamine is B12, and the ulva and kelp have lots of Iron (and Iodine and everything else) in them. So you've got a nice mix of trace elements and vitamins that the dinos could have been lacking without your dosing.
I haven't run across much of anything on dinos needing iodine for any reason, or microalgae/phytoplankton need for I either.
...but
a while back I posted in this thread about how my sandbed dinos (amphidinium mostly) collapsed when I ran lots of Chaeto & Caulerpa in the display bright light while keeping high N and P and avoiding trace element additions. My idea being that the macro outcompeted Dinos for some trace element they needed to enough of an extent that the dinos couldn't outgrow their predators.
I then added a mix of a bunch of trace elements and got the dinos to increase again on the sandbed for a short time.
My best guess (and some evidence but not super conclusive) was that it was Iron.
But Iodine also would follow the same pattern, could be taken up by macroalgae.
a couple of other people have also noted that feeding Macroalgae caused their existing dino populations to really bloom. Macros have a ton of vitamins and trace elements.
Again no idea if Dinos concentrate Iodine in their cells (quick search turns up nothing useful) or why they might want to. Seen two suggestions for why other photosynthetic stuff might concentrate I.
1. It makes them taste bad to discourage grazing (I think dinos have that covered, but who's to say they don't make toxins AND try to taste bad on top of it?)
2. The form of Iodine stored in the cells is a strong reducer, and can protect the cell from oxidation. This one particularly interests me at the moment. I hadn't thought to connect Iodine dosing with variability in how much peroxide it takes to inhibit dinos.
Cobalamine is B12, and the ulva and kelp have lots of Iron (and Iodine and everything else) in them. So you've got a nice mix of trace elements and vitamins that the dinos could have been lacking without your dosing.
StrangeDejavu
Member
That could be. I know that when I started running GFO, my dino problem went through the roof. Now, I know from my time with planted tanks that ferric iron is insoluble in water and completely unavailable to plant life. But, how about dinos? Or does its insolubility mean nothing can make use of it outside of its use as a filter media?
Two possible mechanisms for GFO to increase dinos
1. GFO reduces available P, and therefore decreases green algae. Dinos do just fine in low P water, and the lack of algae means there is little competition, and probably also few grazers.
Lots of people have witnessed Dinos show up when the GFO cleans up their hair algae problem. (For me Carbon overdosing + GFO -> dropping P + dying GHA -> Cyano -> Dinos.)
2. The other very hypothetical effect is that there are kinds of Cyano that can capture Fe(III), and Iron oxides that most nothing else can, and possibly make it available to other organisms
"Trichodesmium accelerates the rate of iron dissolution from oxides and dust, through as yet unspecified cell-surface processes, and thereby increases cellular iron uptake rates."
Does that happen in our tanks with GFO?
No idea.
StrangeDejavu
Member
I'm leaning #2 because I had no (visible) hair algae at the time. My tank was only a month old and I wasn't even out of the diatom phase yet. I added GFO at the recommendation of another poster here. He said if he could go back and do it again, he would work on prevention via export and GFO rather than dealing with it once it's there. I thought that was pretty rational thinking so I ordered a tub of it along with the cheap BioCube skimmer. After only a few days, it went from being a localized problem to every inch of the sand and rock.
Acromaniac
Member
taricha thanks for your answer, that could possibly explain why the peroxide dosing had no effect on my dino's.
karimwassef
Active member
I don't know... no theories. I was surprised.
StrangeDejavu
Member
So, i'm reading around on another popular reefing forum, and user Twilliard believes he's found a solution. He was reading up on Metronidazole and how it affects organisms, apparently it interferes with dinoflagellate cell reproduction. He dosed his tank and confirmed reproduction had stopped and that the bond from cell to cell was broken- they can no longer hold together. He combined this interference with mechanical filtration and after 14 days (max duration for cell survival), his dino ridden tank was spotless. Corals showed no stress during the treatment and he confirmed zooxanthelae inside the coral is fine. He didn't do a blackout and never adjusted his lighting.
Reef Central won't let me link to the thread, but it can be found by Googling "reef dinos a possible cure". Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.
Reef Central won't let me link to the thread, but it can be found by Googling "reef dinos a possible cure". Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.
karimwassef
Active member
looks like someone asked the same question on RC too...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2256823
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2256823
StrangeDejavu
Member
Here's Twilliard's before/after shots, 14 days apart, using Metronidazole against what he ID'd as Prorocentrum lima, but I believe to be Ostreopsis ovata.
Yeah. And that was ostreopsis.
I couldn't find anything on metronidazole and dinos, or why it might as, he says "prevent them from reproducing" and "break apart the mats and keep them from sticking together"
So I contacted him, and will update here.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
I couldn't find anything on metronidazole and dinos, or why it might as, he says "prevent them from reproducing" and "break apart the mats and keep them from sticking together"
So I contacted him, and will update here.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
karimwassef
Active member
Excellent!
StrangeDejavu
Member
Whatever the reasoning, it's hard to deny those before and after shots, lol. Another user in that thread confirmed Metro worked for him as well, though he didn't take any comparison photos. Amphidinium is wreaking havoc on my Dad's tank currently so I may get a hold of him and see if he'd be willing to try this treatment. Doesn't appear to have any negative side effects so if this can be replicated and proven effective against multiple species, that'd be big news.
Metronidazole
Twilliard said he doesn't actually have much supporting lit behind it. The reasoning is based on the textbook medical info on metronidozole, ignoring the part that it targets anaerobic protists.
Background from an interesting paper:
The same paper attempts to determine toxic concentrations of MTZ for 4 different aquatic species: Chlorella and Selenastrum (FW green single cell algae), Acartia (SW copepod), and Brachydanio (FW zebrafish)
The proposed dose by Twilliard is 125 mg/10gal which is 3.3 mg/L. The best news is that the paper couldn't find harmful effects on the copepod at even 100mg/L.
So if MTZ in fact halts dino cell division while leaving the dino grazing pods alone, it could be very useful.
The paper highlighted concerns for the bacterial filtration system, so I'm thinking tracking waste chemicals, Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, Phosphate should be part of the test. Attempting to grow bacteria by carbon dosing while applying a bacteriacide seems ill-advised.
I'd also watch for ciliate survival since they are a single cell organism of about the same scale as the target dinos.
Other weird, interesting, possibly notable research with MTZ:
MTZ specifically kills photoreceptor cells in a bristleworm species (not the common aquarium one), while leaving the rest of the animal apparently unaffected.
Conditional and Specific Cell Ablation in the Marine Annelid Platynereis dumerilii
MTZ is degraded (to what extent?) by strong oxidizers like peroxide, UV and oxidizer systems like UV/peroxide and other combos
Comparison of metronidazole degradation by different advanced oxidation processes in low concentration aqueous solutions
This one goes into the cell machinery of what bacteria are susceptible to MTZ, which aren't, and some bacteria that can be flipped back and forth between susceptible and resistant. I don't have near the cell bio chops to make sense of this one.
Metronidazole resistance in Helicobacter pylori is due to null mutations in a gene (rdxA) that encodes an oxygen-insensitive NADPH nitroreductase
Twilliard said he doesn't actually have much supporting lit behind it. The reasoning is based on the textbook medical info on metronidozole, ignoring the part that it targets anaerobic protists.
Background from an interesting paper:
The toxic effect of the antibiotic metronidazole on aquatic organisms said:
The same paper attempts to determine toxic concentrations of MTZ for 4 different aquatic species: Chlorella and Selenastrum (FW green single cell algae), Acartia (SW copepod), and Brachydanio (FW zebrafish)
note: "EC50" means the concentration where 50% were killed/inhibited.
The proposed dose by Twilliard is 125 mg/10gal which is 3.3 mg/L. The best news is that the paper couldn't find harmful effects on the copepod at even 100mg/L.
So if MTZ in fact halts dino cell division while leaving the dino grazing pods alone, it could be very useful.
The paper highlighted concerns for the bacterial filtration system, so I'm thinking tracking waste chemicals, Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, Phosphate should be part of the test. Attempting to grow bacteria by carbon dosing while applying a bacteriacide seems ill-advised.
I'd also watch for ciliate survival since they are a single cell organism of about the same scale as the target dinos.
Other weird, interesting, possibly notable research with MTZ:
MTZ specifically kills photoreceptor cells in a bristleworm species (not the common aquarium one), while leaving the rest of the animal apparently unaffected.
Conditional and Specific Cell Ablation in the Marine Annelid Platynereis dumerilii
MTZ is degraded (to what extent?) by strong oxidizers like peroxide, UV and oxidizer systems like UV/peroxide and other combos
Comparison of metronidazole degradation by different advanced oxidation processes in low concentration aqueous solutions
This one goes into the cell machinery of what bacteria are susceptible to MTZ, which aren't, and some bacteria that can be flipped back and forth between susceptible and resistant. I don't have near the cell bio chops to make sense of this one.
Metronidazole resistance in Helicobacter pylori is due to null mutations in a gene (rdxA) that encodes an oxygen-insensitive NADPH nitroreductase
StrangeDejavu
Member
Very good news regarding copepods. :thumbsup:
A note to anyone not following along on the other forum: Metronidazole does not kill dinos. It appears to disrupt their reproduction cycle by rendering them sterile, causing the cells still in your tank to run their natural life cycle and then die off. It's then up to us to remove the dinos in the form of detritus via mechanical filtration. So far, treatment looks something like this:
Day 1: 1 - 2 spoons per 10g.
Day 2: 1 - 2 spoons per 10g.
Day 3: 1 - 2 spoons per 10g.
Days 4 - 14: Wait and change mechanical filtration frequently.
The most notable change appears to be on day 10, when the life cycle of the existing cells comes to an end. Like taricha said, no carbon dosing and no H2O2 during this time. My Dad was excited to try this, second dose of Metro will be tonight, so I will update this thread with observation and photos in the next week or two for those who are still reasonably skeptical.
A note to anyone not following along on the other forum: Metronidazole does not kill dinos. It appears to disrupt their reproduction cycle by rendering them sterile, causing the cells still in your tank to run their natural life cycle and then die off. It's then up to us to remove the dinos in the form of detritus via mechanical filtration. So far, treatment looks something like this:
Day 1: 1 - 2 spoons per 10g.
Day 2: 1 - 2 spoons per 10g.
Day 3: 1 - 2 spoons per 10g.
Days 4 - 14: Wait and change mechanical filtration frequently.
The most notable change appears to be on day 10, when the life cycle of the existing cells comes to an end. Like taricha said, no carbon dosing and no H2O2 during this time. My Dad was excited to try this, second dose of Metro will be tonight, so I will update this thread with observation and photos in the next week or two for those who are still reasonably skeptical.
