Dinoflagellates.

[Hefner413]

http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/c...1-4B2D-8505-9623278EA2A0_zpsd2hdfdzv.mp4.html


Hopefully this link works. It's a video. I'm hoping it's not Dino's.

Video works fine for me. Could be cyano or dinos or both. You can tell better with a microscope or by doing some of the tests gone over previously in the thread (I'm not as familiar with these because I just used my child's toy microscope).

 

[taricha]

Could be cyano or dinos or both. You can tell better with a microscope or by doing some of the tests gone over previously in the thread

Yeah. Microscope. If not, at least search for paper towel dino test.
I see a bunch of snails in the vid. Are they alive? If they are dead/dying, definitely dinos.
If the snails are healthy, then you'll have to do other tests.



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[Crackem]

Yeah. Microscope. If not, at least search for paper towel dino test.
I see a bunch of snails in the vid. Are they alive? If they are dead/dying, definitely dinos.
If the snails are healthy, then you'll have to do other tests.



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A lot of snails are dead, but I think it's mainly cause they fell over and couldn't turn back over. There are definitely a lot of snails that are alive.

 

[bheron]

Cyano and dinos have different causes and different fixes.

My conclusion is that dinos are in every system but are kept under control by the algae that normally occupy that part of the food chain and N, P cycles. When all things are in balance, algae take up excess N and P and dinos can't take over.

Overzealous reef keepers who remove all algae by eliminating either N or P (chemicals, C dosing) create an environment without limits to dinos. Once they take hold, dinos alter the chemistry to keep algae out.

The fix is to decimate their population and reestabliah safe zones for algae to thrive and rebalance the system. This sometimes includes adding N and P back to allow normal algae growth.

Thanks great comments! I completely agree however I'm still battling them. I rid them in the past by going "dirty" and basically overfed for weeks. Then started a huge GHA problem. Then installed a ATS. Tank got clean and now dinos back. I just confirmed I have the Amphidinium sp type.

So two questions based on your comments:

1) besides overfeeding how can I raise P04?

2) do I still run my ATS? Seems like a bit counterproductive?

 

[karimwassef]

wait.. you have a functioning scrubber and dinos? Are you sure?

dinos will generally kill a scrubber. Can you share some pics?

 

[jason2459]

IME, cyano and dinoflagellates go hand in hand and have had the same cause and fix in my system.

I've also had a thriving ATS and have had cyano and dino blooms at the same time.

I would not try and pin one thing to a species as diverse as dinoflagellates.

 

[bheron]

wait.. you have a functioning scrubber and dinos? Are you sure?

dinos will generally kill a scrubber. Can you share some pics?

Here's a pic of my ATS. Not a great pic. The yellow in the middle is a result of their too much flow or too much light I believe.

So I have stump remover to raise NO3 but what should I use to raise PO4? My nitrates are usually at 5PPM so they're in check. but PO4 is always undetectable with a hanna low range checker.

 

[karimwassef]

ATS pulls on both N and P. If you're limited on one of them, you'll have less growth.

My readings for both N and P are usually very close to zero with my setup. That just means that my feeding is less than or in balance with the uptake in my system as a whole.

I'm not sure how to add just P.

I terms of cyano and dinos teaming up. They are linked but only one way. Dinos can create opportunities for a cyano "alliance" . But cyano doesn't always imply dinos are present or are coming - in my system at least.

 

[taricha]

Bheron, are you dosing anything other than ca,alk, stump remover?
I've come to conclusion that overfeeding is a really bad way to elevate nutrients when fighting dinos. I'll post links later, but basically macroalgae processes simple forms of N better than complicated ones (duh). But weirdly dinos uptake complicated forms of N (aminos) better than simple ones.
Stump remover is "better" than extra fish food.

Seachem flourish phosphorus is straight p and a (teensy bit of k).
For the more reckless, high p miracle grow liquid fertilizer is something I've used to raise p. At the levels we're talking about (
<.10ppm phosphate) the other things in there are vanishingly small. And if I'm running healthy algae in my system, I'm not worried about accumulation of weird trace metal stuff.

Cyano: From what I've seen ostis are not closely associated with cyano. amphidinium frequently follows cyano and happily colonizes a cyano mat, sometimes turning it brown to the eye.
Jason's dinos showed up on the sand and seemed hand in hand with cyano much like amphidinium in other systems.

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[bheron]

Bheron, are you dosing anything other than ca,alk, stump remover?
I've come to conclusion that overfeeding is a really bad way to elevate nutrients when fighting dinos. I'll post links later, but basically macroalgae processes simple forms of N better than complicated ones (duh). But weirdly dinos uptake complicated forms of N (aminos) better than simple ones.
Stump remover is "better" than extra fish food.

Seachem flourish phosphorus is straight p and a (teensy bit of k).
For the more reckless, high p miracle grow liquid fertilizer is something I've used to raise p. At the levels we're talking about (
<.10ppm phosphate) the other things in there are vanishingly small. And if I'm running healthy algae in my system, I'm not worried about accumulation of weird trace metal stuff.

Cyano: From what I've seen ostis are not closely associated with cyano. amphidinium frequently follows cyano and happily colonizes a cyano mat, sometimes turning it brown to the eye.
Jason's dinos showed up on the sand and seemed hand in hand with cyano much like amphidinium in other systems.

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Thanks Taricha, great stuff. I was hoping to find a better way of dosing P and heard about the Seachem Flourish product. I'm thinking this is the route for my specific Dinos since the overfeeding seemed to control them before. I'm going to give this a try, along with stump remover, to keep N and P at optimum levels. N between 5 and 10 PPM and P you say between 0 and 0.1 PPM?

Also interestingly the scenario you outlined sounds like what happened to me - "amphidinium frequently follows cyano and happily colonizes a cyano mat, sometimes turning it brown to the eye....showed up on the sand and seemed hand in hand with cyano..."

Finally, you said "I'm running healthy algae". Can you expand on what you mean by that? I'm in the process of adding more space to my system, specifically for refugium purposes. Planning to stock it with the right microfauna, phytoplankton, zooplankton (still learning here).

 

[taricha]

Finally, you said "I'm running healthy algae". Can you expand on what you mean by that? I'm in the process of adding more space to my system, specifically for refugium purposes.

Like Gordon Gekko almost said - "Green is Good." any fast growing macroalgae, turf or even GHA I'd consider a plus while fighting dinos.

I was hoping to find a better way of dosing P and heard about the Seachem Flourish product. I'm thinking this is the route for my specific Dinos since the overfeeding seemed to control them before. I'm going to give this a try, along with stump remover, to keep N and P at optimum levels. N between 5 and 10 PPM and P you say between 0 and 0.1 PPM?

I dunno that there is an optimum level, certainly not one I can give you. But I'll talk about my tank and what I'd do. I'd aim for enough N (in simple form nitrate) & P to make sure any fast growing green algae has enough to not be limited, and that a change in the tank won't drop either super low.

 

[bheron]

Like Gordon Gekko almost said - "Green is Good." any fast growing macroalgae, turf or even GHA I'd consider a plus while fighting dinos.


I dunno that there is an optimum level, certainly not one I can give you. But I'll talk about my tank and what I'd do. I'd aim for enough N (in simple form nitrate) & P to make sure any fast growing green algae has enough to not be limited, and that a change in the tank won't drop either super low.

Ok thanks for this. Ok just purchased a 500ml bottle of Seachem Flourish Phosphorus. Crossing fingers!!

 

[taricha]

Earlier I said I'd post details on how macroalgae prefers simple forms of N, but dinos excel at uptaking complicated forms of N.....

First, on the macroalgaes - yes. NH4, NO3, Aminos is the order of preference, and fast growing algae can really ramp up their NH4 uptake if the opportunity presents itself.
This paper: "Uptake of urea and amino acids by the macroalgae Ulva lactuca (Chlorophyta) and Gracilaria vermiculophylla (Rhodophyta)"
has some really interesting stuff. One takeaway is that Amino acids get uptaken faster (generally) if they have a smaller side-chain. (see fig 3)
The paper talks about the algae having to break down the amino for absorption to get the ammonia part it wants. makes sense.

That makes sense. The dino part is kinda mindblowing though.
From the "putting the N in dinos" paper
"Generally, when growing in presence of various different N compounds, dinoflagellates (as well as plants and algae) prefer to take up NH+4. However, there is a concentration threshold above which NH+4becomes toxic to the cells, and this threshold seems to be species-specific. For example, in A. minutum, NH+4 concentrations of 25 μM and higher lead to growth inhibition while for A. tamarense and Cochlodinium polykrikoides, this threshold was not observed until 50 μM"
That's like 0.5 ppm ammonia, weirdly low. anyway... on to good stuff.

"Another tendency in dinoflagellates is inhibition of NO−3 uptake when in the presence of NH+4. In A. minutum, this inhibition was found to be greater when the cells were in N-sufficient compared to N-deprived conditions. This suggests that when N is limiting, uptake of different forms will be favored over strict assimilation of NH+4 which has a reduced energy cost. Curiously, different blooming populations of dinoflagellates were found to have high uptake rates for urea and/or amino acids, and these rates were always higher than the rates for NO−3 uptake. In L. polyedrum, the urea uptake rate was also about 2 times more than that of NH+4, even if environmental urea concentrations were less than NH+4. Taken together, these observations suggest that dinoflagellates possess a full suite of transporters for inorganic N and organic N forms, that they have the biochemical means to assimilate these N forms, and that they show a great physiological plasticity in response to external N types and concentrations.

Dinos better at taking up big organic N forms than straight ammonia? Super weird.

So Algae preference: Ammonia, Nitrate, Aminos
Dino preference: Aminos, Ammonia (as long as it's tiny), Nitrate

So when elevating Nutrients, go for simple. Nitrate, avoid complex stuff like aminos. A.k.a. Dosing better than heavy feeding.


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[mandrieu]

Earlier I said I'd post details on how macroalgae prefers simple forms of N, but dinos excel at uptaking complicated forms of N.....


So when elevating Nutrients, go for simple. Nitrate, avoid complex stuff like aminos. A.k.a. Dosing better than heavy feeding.


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Very interesting. Great stuff

 

[bheron]

Thanks Taricha. I consider myself a pretty smart person. but wow I have a hard time following all of that technical stuff! So Im very grateful for you taking the time to summarize and dumb it down to our level. Right now I have in my arsenal 1) stump remover (the pure stuff was too $$ for my size system) and 2) Seachem Phosphorus. I havent dosed the latter just yet. Today or tomorrow I will start taking daily tests and dosing both, recording what happens in my system. Dinos recede? Other things grow? Will take pics too.

 

[rags111875]

4,000+ posts on this topic. Figure'd I'd chime in with my current experience.
Tank is ~15 months old. Been fighting dinos for ~1 month. Water changes, no water changes, chemiclean (mis-diagnosed as cyano). Nothing helped. While i run a calcium reactor, i also drip pickling lime. Last weekend, i dripped a bit too much pickling lime (forgot i left my valve open too much during topoff). By the time i realized it, my tank looked like a snow storm.
My pumps and powerheads did a good job of blowing the excess off my corals, but it seemed to stick to the dinos, which ~1 week later, are finally showing signs of receding (from sand bed and rocks).
Not sure i would recommend this, but looking positive for first time in awhile. Didnt lose any corals either. alk spiked to 10.4 (from 8.8) as a result.
Will post if anything changes.

 

[karimwassef]

A safer option is to use calcium carbonate powder. The particulate may bind to the dinos and be removed by the skimmer.

 

[rog2961]

mine just came back in my tank, only on the overflow and backwalls

 

[rog2961]

it got way worse after I went fallow. Only been 6 days and the dinos are getting stronger. Should I just dump a bunch of food in?

 

[Heuristic]

Reducing phosphates for cyano is ok, but for dinos it isn't. For dinos, you actually need phosphates.

My best solution to reduce N and P is an algae scrubber.

LOL things may be suddenly making since... so about a month ago I was having some GHA issues, so I decided to throw in a bag of chemipure phosphate removal in to my filter sock. Since then I have seen absolutely zero hair algae growth(nor cheatomorpha in my fuge), but in the last few days I am starting to see an increase in dino growth. I am thinking this because I have removing too much phosphates(they read 0) so now the dino is starting to strive. I am thinking when I change the filter sock tonight I will just leave out the bag and see if that improves. I now have a fox face in the main tank, so a little hair algae won't hurt anyways.

Anyone else agree this is probably what is sparking my dino outbreak?