Dinos again!!!!!!! I think I have beaten them for good, but still need some help!
- Thread starter ReefMaster48
- Start date
slief
RC Sponsor
Like the AquaUV, the Pentair is a high quality unit that is designed for high flow, high efficiency. I used to recommend Emperor Aqautics and AquaUV until Pentair bough EA and the knowledgeable support went away. Still a very good unit.
WVfishguy
New member
slief, how often do you replace the UV bulbs in your Aquas? I use a 25 watt unit on my 75 QT.
As a side note - When I had my maintenance business, I used AquaUVs as part of the initial setup in all customer's tanks, freshwater or salt. I charged for a new bulb every eight months. This precluded a lot of farking around with ich, green water, cooties, what have you.
As a side note - When I had my maintenance business, I used AquaUVs as part of the initial setup in all customer's tanks, freshwater or salt. I charged for a new bulb every eight months. This precluded a lot of farking around with ich, green water, cooties, what have you.
slief
RC Sponsor
I saw mine ever 12 months.
karimwassef
Active member
Check out the big Dino thread on the chemistry forum.
There are two ways to fix it.. the clean method and the dirty method.
Dinos is a general term but there are several different species and you need to look under a microscope to tell what you've got.
The UV /peroxide route is the clean method. Sometimes works, but not on the most persistent strains with the hardest shells.
The dirty method has worked for those. Basically, dinos are the result of an unnatural biological & chemical state usually due to overzealous keepers who try to eradicate hair or other algae by adding chemicals (LaCl, phosphate removers) or running ULNS (C dosing). This basically wrecks the normal food chain where algae play a role and devolve your tank into an ecological dead end where dinos rule and algae can't gain a foothold.
The dirty method is to intentionally add and rebalance your nitrates and phosphates with the ultimate purpose of resurrecting the algae and resetting the tank's biology. Tree stump remover (nitrate) has shown success here, but check out the thread for the deep dive and feedback from other reef keepers who've done it.
There are two ways to fix it.. the clean method and the dirty method.
Dinos is a general term but there are several different species and you need to look under a microscope to tell what you've got.
The UV /peroxide route is the clean method. Sometimes works, but not on the most persistent strains with the hardest shells.
The dirty method has worked for those. Basically, dinos are the result of an unnatural biological & chemical state usually due to overzealous keepers who try to eradicate hair or other algae by adding chemicals (LaCl, phosphate removers) or running ULNS (C dosing). This basically wrecks the normal food chain where algae play a role and devolve your tank into an ecological dead end where dinos rule and algae can't gain a foothold.
The dirty method is to intentionally add and rebalance your nitrates and phosphates with the ultimate purpose of resurrecting the algae and resetting the tank's biology. Tree stump remover (nitrate) has shown success here, but check out the thread for the deep dive and feedback from other reef keepers who've done it.
ReefMaster48
New member
Thanks for the info!
My plan from now on to fix any problem is basically to let itself work out. Other then husbandry tasks, I am kinda done with messing with the tank. If it gets overrun by algae, then Ill let it be until the imbalance is corrected and replaced with something else. Don't get me wrong, I stand by what I did, and believe that there is way more then one way to reefing; but i have gone through to much work lol. Early new years resolution is to let the tank do its thing for a while. :thumbsup:
slief
RC Sponsor
There is one other alternative that I failed to mention.. Dino X by Fauna Marin. While I’ve never used it, I know others who have had success with the product. Fauna Marin makes very good quality products too so I would certainly trust their product.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/faun...MIiJuU7qKD2AIVgWd-Ch3C-AONEAQYASABEgLjq_D_BwE
karimwassef
Active member
Letting nature do its thing is ok, but you need to set it on a corrective course. Dinos create their own alternative natural environment where competing algae and predators are poisoned... that's a permanent state unless you reset.
That's why they're so difficult. They poison their environment so algae cannot recover.
ReefMaster48
New member
Well I did do a reset essentially, and I believe that any dinos would have been killed. So (in theory of course) I am dino free. We will see how the next few weeks/months pan out. Hopefully we stay this way.
I did try DINO X with no success. Only thing it killed was a xenia frag. :sad1:
For preventative and as an insurance policy, I did buy a UV and am in the process of installing. However, I need about 6 inches of more pipe. :debi: Apparently I didnt measure twice. I have wanted a UV for some time, so dinos are not the only reason; but I also know that a UV wont fix everything either. Just another tool to help.
karimwassef
Active member
Reset isn't to remove dinos.
Reset is adding the nutrients to intentionally cultivate algae.
Reset is adding the nutrients to intentionally cultivate algae.
ReefMaster48
New member
Can elaborate a little? I might have gotten a tad confused. By "reset" we are still talking about "re-starting" the tank, right? Also, just to clarify, exactly what nutrients are you describing?
karimwassef
Active member
No. Reset is a biological reset. UV, etc.. can help reduce dinos but that's like pulling out weeds... they WILL be back.
The reset is the equivalent of planting competing plants that push the weeds back into the shadows.
You want to get back to algae... lots of hair algae... then slowly let the tank mature normally again.
The reset is the equivalent of planting competing plants that push the weeds back into the shadows.
You want to get back to algae... lots of hair algae... then slowly let the tank mature normally again.
I've had about a 2 month battle with Dinos where I tried everything, and I finally got a handle on them recently.
I believe the formula to win is actually quite simple:
Get your Nitrates to 5-10PPM. Get your phosphates to >0.1 PPM (shoot for 0.1 to 0.2). Dose nitrates with stump remover. Dose phosphates with seachem flourish or the like. Hold nitrates and phosphates at those levels for a couple weeks and your dino bloom will end. It can be difficult to get your levels this high. I literally had to dose the equivalent of 1 PPM of phosphate per day for multiple days to start to get phosphates to register. To figure out how much to dose, just test your water everyday right before the lights come on. Then dose X of nitrates and Y of phosphates (start small and ramp up from there --- there are calculators online which should give you good initial doses). Keep ramping up the doses until nitrates at 5-10 and phosphates are >0.1. Depending on your tank's chemistry that might mean more of one or the other. Then once your levels are correct, keep doing maintenance doses everyday to maintain the nitrates and phosphates at the proper levels.
The goal here is two fold:
First, you want to convince the dinos to stop blooming and starting going back to being normal dino cells. With high levels of nutrients, the dinos go back to being normal. With low nutrient levels, they bloom. Once you get the higher nutrient levels in the tank, the dinos should stop blooming.
Second, things that are "good" competition against dinos, like algae, have trouble outcompeting bacteria for nutrients. This is why carbon dosing works so well. So you need to pump up the nutrient levels in your tank so algae can start getting a foothold and outcompeting the bacteria.
So pump the nutrient levels up and hold them there for days/weeks.
At this point, hopefully your bloom will stop and you'll have tons of algae everywhere. The algae is a bit of a nuisance, but it is much better than the dinos. At this point, your goal will now be to find a balance between nutrient addition (mostly feeding and potentially dosing), and nutrient export (chaeto in a refugium, ATS, water changes, whatever), that keeps your nitrate and phosphate levels above 0. This will prevent the dinos from blooming again. I'd say the standard targets would be a nitrate level of 5 and phosphates of 0.03. These levels are actually quite easy to manage in a healthy tank.
Then the long term goal is to make it so your DT isn't full of unsightly algae. This probably means a big cleanup crew and slowly ramping up the nutrient export to match your feeding levels.
The thing about dinos is that if you have a healthy reef aquarium with non-zero nutrient levels, the dinos are easily outcompeted by a number of other things and they won't bloom. Put a small rock with a dino bloom into a large and healthy reef tank, and the dinos will all be gone in a week. It isn't the presence of the dinos that is the problem, it is whether the water chemistry of the tank is healthy or not.
But once a bloom starts, the dinos create water chemistry that is really really good for them and really really bad for everybody else. So even if you selectively kill most of the Dinos (blackouts, H2O2, UV sterilizer or whatever), the remaining ones can and probably will come back with a fury. You have to completely alter the water chemistry *away* from what the dinos like and back towards a healthy reef tank, at which point you wont even need to selectively kill the dinos, they'll stop blooming and go back to being a very small and insignificant part of your tank's microbiology.
I believe the formula to win is actually quite simple:
Get your Nitrates to 5-10PPM. Get your phosphates to >0.1 PPM (shoot for 0.1 to 0.2). Dose nitrates with stump remover. Dose phosphates with seachem flourish or the like. Hold nitrates and phosphates at those levels for a couple weeks and your dino bloom will end. It can be difficult to get your levels this high. I literally had to dose the equivalent of 1 PPM of phosphate per day for multiple days to start to get phosphates to register. To figure out how much to dose, just test your water everyday right before the lights come on. Then dose X of nitrates and Y of phosphates (start small and ramp up from there --- there are calculators online which should give you good initial doses). Keep ramping up the doses until nitrates at 5-10 and phosphates are >0.1. Depending on your tank's chemistry that might mean more of one or the other. Then once your levels are correct, keep doing maintenance doses everyday to maintain the nitrates and phosphates at the proper levels.
The goal here is two fold:
First, you want to convince the dinos to stop blooming and starting going back to being normal dino cells. With high levels of nutrients, the dinos go back to being normal. With low nutrient levels, they bloom. Once you get the higher nutrient levels in the tank, the dinos should stop blooming.
Second, things that are "good" competition against dinos, like algae, have trouble outcompeting bacteria for nutrients. This is why carbon dosing works so well. So you need to pump up the nutrient levels in your tank so algae can start getting a foothold and outcompeting the bacteria.
So pump the nutrient levels up and hold them there for days/weeks.
At this point, hopefully your bloom will stop and you'll have tons of algae everywhere. The algae is a bit of a nuisance, but it is much better than the dinos. At this point, your goal will now be to find a balance between nutrient addition (mostly feeding and potentially dosing), and nutrient export (chaeto in a refugium, ATS, water changes, whatever), that keeps your nitrate and phosphate levels above 0. This will prevent the dinos from blooming again. I'd say the standard targets would be a nitrate level of 5 and phosphates of 0.03. These levels are actually quite easy to manage in a healthy tank.
Then the long term goal is to make it so your DT isn't full of unsightly algae. This probably means a big cleanup crew and slowly ramping up the nutrient export to match your feeding levels.
The thing about dinos is that if you have a healthy reef aquarium with non-zero nutrient levels, the dinos are easily outcompeted by a number of other things and they won't bloom. Put a small rock with a dino bloom into a large and healthy reef tank, and the dinos will all be gone in a week. It isn't the presence of the dinos that is the problem, it is whether the water chemistry of the tank is healthy or not.
But once a bloom starts, the dinos create water chemistry that is really really good for them and really really bad for everybody else. So even if you selectively kill most of the Dinos (blackouts, H2O2, UV sterilizer or whatever), the remaining ones can and probably will come back with a fury. You have to completely alter the water chemistry *away* from what the dinos like and back towards a healthy reef tank, at which point you wont even need to selectively kill the dinos, they'll stop blooming and go back to being a very small and insignificant part of your tank's microbiology.
ReefMaster48
New member
Oh ok gotcha. That's what I have been thinking, because one way or another, there is always some type of algae in a tank that is out-competing all the others. I would be very happy with GHA! Other then searching for a GHA covered frag, do you know a quick way to introduce it? Is there anyone that sells it online? I don't know who would make much money selling a nuisance algae though....
ReefMaster48
New member
Thank you for sharing your experience! Great to hear that you beat dinos!
My dinos started with no nutrients at all (well, very little, less them 1ppm), but after seeing them, I stopped WCs and got them up to around 10PPM. It had been that way since 2-3 weeks after the outbreak with no results either.
For now, I just gotta see what happens, and hopefully it will not come back. I suppose my next goal should be to let nutrients build up so that I can get an algae to take over? Like karimwassef was saying. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or where to get algae? Seems like a silly question, because I can not imagine anyone selling nuisance algae.
What about culpera? I have heard that it can grow really fast, maybe even better then chateo? However, i do understand that it can go sexual, and completely take over a tank. Is there anything that eats it to keep it out of the main? From what I understand, it rarely goes sexual (but can), so would it be any different or better the chateo?
karimwassef
Active member
You don't need to add it. It's already in your tank but not able to grow.
You need both N and P to be high enough.
You need both N and P to be high enough.
LeJeune981
New member
You can come take all the turf algae from my tank... for free!!!!
Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk
What is 10 PPM? Nitrates? You need to test for both nitrates and phosphates.
In order to get the Dinos to stop blooming, you need both nitrates of 10 PPM and phosphates >0.1 PPM. If Dinos are blooming and your nitrates are actually at 10 PPM, it is extremely likely that your phosphates are at 0. The bacteria will consume all available nitrates and phosphates until one of them is exhausted, so having one of either nitrates or phosphates to be measurable but the other one at 0 is very common. That is why dosing N or P individually is so critical, it is the only way to get N
back into balance.As karimwassef said, the algae is already there. It wants to grow but can't because it is being outcompeted by the bacteria and dinos.
If you maintain nitrate levels of >5 and phosphate levels of 0.1 PPM for a few weeks, algae will start to grow and the dino's growth will very likely subside. These levels can be hard to reach, I had the dose the equivalent of 1 PPM worth of phosphates throughout the day to get my tank levels to 0.1 PPM, because the bacteria were consuming so much. As the bloom subsides the tanks consumption will go down, but in the main stage of a dino bloom you may need to dose substantial amounts of either N or P (or both) to get your levels back in check.
ReefMaster48
New member
I gotcha. Makes sense.
So turning off the skimmer (which has been pulling out a bunch of junk) would increase phosphates right? Should I do that, or just start skimming very lightly?
Also, would increasing the bio-load increase phosphates? Seems like a dumb question, but fish poo would turn into phosphates too, right.
So turning off the skimmer (which has been pulling out a bunch of junk) would increase phosphates right? Should I do that, or just start skimming very lightly?
Also, would increasing the bio-load increase phosphates? Seems like a dumb question, but fish poo would turn into phosphates too, right.
First, I wouldn't add any more livestock while dealing with a dino bloom. No reason to complicate matters while you deal with the bloom.
I'm not an expert on how the skimmer affects N levels, but I'd assume that feeding heavily and/or turning off the skimmer will both have a similar effect in increasing the levels of both. I'd guess in some cases depending on the bacterial composition of your tank, increasing both N together might help to bring N levels back into balance, or it might not.
In my case it did nothing. I effectively turned the skimmer off and fed double for a long time and my levels did not move. It wasn't until I manually measured and dosed the amounts to get my levels up did I see any progress, and as I said above, I had to dose *extreme* amounts of phosphates (and next to no nitrates) to get my levels back into proper balance.
Could you try turning down the skimmer or feeding more? Sure. It may help. I think especially since you are trying to get N levels to rise, turning down the skimmer is a good idea. But that is a very inexact way to help solve the problem. The surgical approach is testing your nitrates and phosphates every morning and dosing the proper amount of nitrate and/or phosphate to get the levels where they need to be. While doing this keep everything else constant. Feed the same amount everyday. Keep your skimmer running at the same levels. Keep your photoperiod the same. Don't add any new livestock.
I'm not an expert on how the skimmer affects N
levels, but I'd assume that feeding heavily and/or turning off the skimmer will both have a similar effect in increasing the levels of both. I'd guess in some cases depending on the bacterial composition of your tank, increasing both N together might help to bring N levels back into balance, or it might not.In my case it did nothing. I effectively turned the skimmer off and fed double for a long time and my levels did not move. It wasn't until I manually measured and dosed the amounts to get my levels up did I see any progress, and as I said above, I had to dose *extreme* amounts of phosphates (and next to no nitrates) to get my levels back into proper balance.
Could you try turning down the skimmer or feeding more? Sure. It may help. I think especially since you are trying to get N
levels to rise, turning down the skimmer is a good idea. But that is a very inexact way to help solve the problem. The surgical approach is testing your nitrates and phosphates every morning and dosing the proper amount of nitrate and/or phosphate to get the levels where they need to be. While doing this keep everything else constant. Feed the same amount everyday. Keep your skimmer running at the same levels. Keep your photoperiod the same. Don't add any new livestock.
