DIY Natureef Style Denitrator Build and Data thread...

[mrx66699]

Also, do you need to buy the starter culture? Or are you able to just wait until it starts on its own?

the starter culture that we all here in south florida have used has been all from the same culture passed around for years, starting up without addition of a start up culture will just take longer in the first cycle

 

[Northside Reef]

How much longer without the startup culture do yo know?

this OK to use?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LABCHEM-Methanol-Methyl-Alcohol-8RL38?Pid=search

 

[dwolson2]

not so sure how good the 10gal will work as it needs to flush and you don't want the pump in the chamber as it will just get covered in bacteria and then will eventually clog up and you don't want to keep disturbing things taking the pump in and out in and out.....i suppose if you could drill the 10 it would work just fine....if you are gone and the bacteria is not fed it will start to die off and then when fed your cycle will need to start up again, put it on an automatic doser and timer for the flush pump....unless this is your fist time cycling and in that case if it finishes before you get home then restarting the cycle should not be an issue just will delay time in starting up things ....the byproduct of the bacteria feeding on the methanol is the striping of the 02 from nitrate and and then the nitrogen releasing and degassing off (Dave could prolly answer this more scientifically)....methanol is more of a pure substance of carbon....

The tank would be drilled, really the only difference I see with yours and what I would do is My outside would be a 10 gal tank, vs your acrylic. Unless I don't understand how yours is set up. I would drill for the return to the tank, and put my suplly and methanol ports/holes on the top of the tank.
It will be on a timer, both the flush pump and the doser, once its cycled, but I was referring to the initial cycle.

the starter culture that we all here in south florida have used has been all from the same culture passed around for years, starting up without addition of a start up culture will just take longer in the first cycle

oh ok.

 

[dwolson2]

How much longer without the startup culture do yo know?

this OK to use?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LABCHEM-Methanol-Methyl-Alcohol-8RL38?Pid=search

That stuff is crazy expensive!

 

[Northside Reef]

could you link someplace else? And is $20 per liter really crazy expensive? I have no idea I do not buy a lot of methanol.

I have found it for $13 for 32 oz plus shipping which brought it over $20 per 32 oz. so it seemed in line to me since a liter is more than 32 oz and I can pick it up locally at Graingers where I have an account set up already.

 

[lnevo]

From the sounds of it a liter will go quite a ways...

 

[Northside Reef]

From the sounds of it a liter will go quite a ways...

depends I guess but the OP is up to 25 ML per flush and is trying to flush up to 4 times per day at that rate 1 liter would last 10 days. Now I understand that once nitrates are lowered you won't need to dose that much. My total system is actually larger than that of the OP's so I would guess I will end up using a lot of this fairly quickly in the beginning.

the starter culture that we all here in south florida have used has been all from the same culture passed around for years, starting up without addition of a start up culture will just take longer in the first cycle

Maybe I should get one from you guys down there and we can start passing it around here in the frozen north

 

[lnevo]

DrThompson said he was dosing 2ml per cycle so once established it doesn't sound like it would need that much.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22573619

 

[dwolson2]

I think that earlier they said they could use race fuel, which used to be 5$ a gallon.

 

[nivram]

I think that earlier they said they could use race fuel, which used to be 5$ a gallon.

That's correct. It's called M1. Check around the race shops in your area.

 

[mrx66699]

How much longer without the startup culture do yo know?

this OK to use?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LABCHEM-Methanol-Methyl-Alcohol-8RL38?Pid=search

The M1 Racing fuel ....cheaper too $40 for 5 gal which would be enough to last for over a year for you Im sure

 

[mrx66699]

The tank would be drilled, really the only difference I see with yours and what I would do is My outside would be a 10 gal tank, vs your acrylic. Unless I don't understand how yours is set up. I would drill for the return to the tank, and put my suplly and methanol ports/holes on the top of the tank.
It will be on a timer, both the flush pump and the doser, once its cycled, but I was referring to the initial cycle.




oh ok.

that would work it just needs to be a holding chamber with the media for bacterial growth and the pump external located in the sump....

 

[mrx66699]

depends I guess but the OP is up to 25 ML per flush and is trying to flush up to 4 times per day at that rate 1 liter would last 10 days. Now I understand that once nitrates are lowered you won't need to dose that much. My total system is actually larger than that of the OP's so I would guess I will end up using a lot of this fairly quickly in the beginning.



Maybe I should get one from you guys down there and we can start passing it around here in the frozen north

we could work something out for an overnight when your ready

 

[mrx66699]

DrThompson said he was dosing 2ml per cycle so once established it doesn't sound like it would need that much.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22573619

I am now dosing 35ml per cycle which is 17.5ml per cycle 3 x a day

 

[Northside Reef]

The M1 Racing fuel ....cheaper too $40 for 5 gal which would be enough to last for over a year for you Im sure

Ah I do not remember seeing this. Thanks I have some guys who know guys.

 

[mrx66699]

Take a look at this ....guess which one is my DT....lol the one on the left ...finally undetectable!!!!......

<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/IMAG1593_zpsfc6fbac5.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/IMAG1593_zpsfc6fbac5.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMAG1593_zpsfc6fbac5.jpg"/></a>

In a little over a month from this ...

<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/IMAG1422_zps1215a76c.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/IMAG1422_zps1215a76c.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMAG1422_zps1215a76c.jpg"/></a>

 

[DRThompson]

A sucessfull experiment!!!

Matt is now controlling his nitrates on a 700gal system with a methanol biodenitrater using a 30gal chamber that cycles 3 times a day.

I thought I should write a followup to my initial expectations written at the start of this thread.(see page 2)

Nitrogen cycle in the aquarium:
NH4(ammonia)---->NO2(nitrite)---->NO3(nitrate)

De-nitrification is the nitrogen cycle in reverse (sort of)
NO3(nitrate)---->NO2(nitrite)---->N2O(nitrous oxide)----->Nitrogen gas

NOTE: NO2 and N2O are the intermediates found in the denitrification. Since we couldnt test for nitrous oxide, nitrite testing became an important indication of the start and finish of denitrification.

Observations/Notes:
- oxygen test kits were a bust; readings unhelpful and inaccurate(salifert and red sea)
- ORP was a good indicator the reaction was proceeding but not an indicator of the peak (ORP drops quickly and levels off around 200 points lower than start)
- Nitrite was best indicator! We used an API test kit. The hanna ULR Nitrite checkker might have been able to calc PEAK but was not necessary. Nitrites - 0 at start; they increased as reaction was happening and were 0 at end.
- Visual observations of the bacteria (thick, stringy, slimy, clear to light brown)
- difficult to find the PEAK unless you test multiple times a day.
- First couple of cycles more methanol was needed than original calculation (dosed every 3-4 days until cycle completed)
- Methanol dose was closer to 4:1 ratio for maintenance dosing.
- 1st cycle took 21 days and nearly 60ml of pure methanol.
- clean skimmer before first flush, matts skimmer went NUTS after 1st flush.
- Subsequent cycles took less methanol but dosing has been closer to a 4:1 ratio
- 30gal chamber now cycles every 8 hours with 17.5ml of pure methanol per cycle

Here is a (fill in the blank) formula for methanol dosing in the denitrator chamber:
Nitrate concentration X volume of chamber X 4 (4:1 ratio) X 1.25 (density of methanol) = maint dose

Nitrates in your tank mg/L: _______
Multiplied by
volume of your DENITRATOR in Liters:_______
Multiplied by X 5

= ____________ ml (total amount in milliliters of PURE 100% methanol needed)

This is your maint dose per cycle; if you are on your initial dosing then use the above dose every 3 days until cycle completes.

 

[SPotter]

wow this is amazing!!!!! out of curiousity did you guys test po4 at all thru out this process to see if there would be any unexpected impact on that as well?

 

[CHSUB]

I used a Natureef Denitrator in the early 2000's for about 2 years. Then A. used a lawn irrigation timer.

my observations:
1) set up the tank from the begining w/denitrator and no3 was always 0.00. so i think it worked? however, when i removed it no3 stayed at 0.00.
2) orp never went negative despite A. saying it does.
3) massive uncontrollable cyano, that went away when denitrator was removed.

my conclusions: true denitration is not taking place, the process is similar to vodka/vinegar dosing, this seems true because orp stays positive (in my case) and the biomass needs to be removed often. i believe the denitrator may only be a style of enclosed carbon dosing w/methonal, which maybe more or less effective than dosing the entire tank?

 

[DRThompson]

wow this is amazing!!!!! out of curiousity did you guys test po4 at all thru out this process to see if there would be any unexpected impact on that as well?

While the bacteria uses some phosphate, it has little impact on the overall phosphate level. I'm working on a Strontium nitrate solution to help remove phosphates. Look for a future thread on strontium nitrate added to the chamber to help remove phosphates.