DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12152616#post12152616 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reef bloke
Does anyone have any idea what laguna pump is used for the BK2000 pump on the BK650? I have a pump that has burned out on my BK650 so have the impeller etc. BK parts are difficult to get hold of in the U.K so a Laguna pump would be cheaper and easier to get hold of.
Many thanks for any help.

I believe it is the motor for the Laguna 7500 (220v/50hz version of the 2000/2400/2900). I think all the RD skimmer pumps are based on this motor actually, just the volutes/restrictions are changed. I have not seen a 4200 used by them, as that is a much larger block (4200gph). The only exception would be the 1500 motorblock, which is used for all the mini RD's (the 600/900/1300 all need shaft supports on the inlet like an eheim/sicce, etc). The thing is, if rather than modifying the electrical properties of the pump to get the desired results (Royal's method), just the water end of the pump was modified to match the motor when turned into a skimmer pump (my design/ATB's), you can produce 2000-level air with the 1500 motorblocks, along with better air/water ratio. Klaus himself has noted that the 'ideal' skimmer pump would be a 1:1 air to water ratio, yet the RD's get something like 3:1 at best. The specs I gave ATB get about 2:1. Makes you wonder, eh?

The 7500 should be it, but I dont know that this alone will be enough, as you would almost need to add the anti-lime loop to cool the motor back down. The magnets are swapped out??? on some models to vary the performance, which makes the motors run hotter (rms wattage drops, but VA not so much, so PF goes down), and thats the reason for the anti-lime loop (along with less clearance around the magnet for water flow, so the anti-lime loop is needed or else calcium will build up faster). By leaving the electric end alone, and just modding the water end to match the motor when used as a skimmer (the mix of air and water with a needle/mesh impeller produces less resistance than pure water, so you compensate by making the 'wet end' components that much larger), the motors dont run as hot, and the lime loop isnt needed. You also get better air/water ratios, better longevity (its operating cooler and very close to original pump specs rather than a 100/120 watt motor restricted back to say... 58W RMS). Sure, they have the power factor correction chip/circuits in them, but they can only do so much. If you start telling this 100 watt pump to operate at only 48 watts... you have other problems to deal with.

Like I mentioned in the email to you Tony, if you could send a pic of two of the motor, or post them here, I could tell you for sure. The thing is going to be... what about that lime loop? ATB pumps dont need it so much because they arent restricted and maintain the original Laguna cooling method (and almost the same water flow), but I bet if you run a RD w/o it you will see a much faster rate of calcium buildup. At the least, you would need to clean the pump/soak it in vinegar more often to compensate.

If it was 110v/60hz, I would say you should just get an Airstar 1500 with a meshwheel, as they get 2250lph... and be done with it. But the 220v/50hz version of the ATB airstar does only about 1500-1800lph from what I remember.

 

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12156557#post12156557 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ATB USA
Mavgi

What do you think of the laguna pumps now?

How much air on your 1500?

Hi Victor

i think same as before :lol:

i can pull form 20LPM (43SCHF) to 45LPM (96SCHF) all deppend how i play with the intake and inlet size.

i am interesting to know how much the air star 1500 pull on the large con skimmer you have . i thought to build one but different size (unless Anton change the size of it) 12" diameter 24" high 6.5" neck and 10" cup... but from what i think it will handle good on 25-30LPM not more then that , even as is , it will create turbulence . here is short video on 35LPM :

 

[hahnmeister]

Mavgi, the stock Laguna 1500 for instance moves 1500gph (yeah, duh, I know), but even as the ATB/big volute version which moves 2250lph of air, its still moving about 1200gph of water. Considering with a little back-pressure, the stock version could be restricted to that point easily, I dont think the heat output between the pumps will matter much. The power factor between the two pumps can be kept pretty much the same as well, so this shouldnt be a factor either. It just comes down to making the impeller/volute/connections large enough. The only downside to this is that the pump wont handle head-pressure as well, but considering these are asperating skimmer pumps... its a mute point.

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12156744#post12156744 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
Hi Victor

i think same as before :lol:

i can pull form 20LPM (43SCHF) to 45LPM (96SCHF) all deppend how i play with the intake and inlet size.

i am interesting to know how much the air star 1500 pull on the large con skimmer you have . i thought to build one but different size (unless Anton change the size of it) 12" diameter 24" high 6.5" neck and 10" cup... but from what i think it will handle good on 25-30LPM not more then that , even as is , it will create turbulence . here is short video on 35LPM :

Mavgi, the specs on the ATB 1500 are rather well known... 2250lph of air with about 4500lph of water as meshwheel. This does depend on the water depth though. With ATB skimmers, the back-pressure on the pumps is almost nothing because of the cone shape, but on that tall cylinder you have there... well... ???

By making the volute even larger, sure, this pump could go even higher in air, but it would become even more sensitive to back-pressure. So say, on a 30" tall skimmer, for example, the pump would still hit the wall at the same point. So you would need to run such a pump on a very short body (or cone), or force feed it air. To compensate, you would have to make the impeller larger to regain pressure handling. The problem is that these pumps need to start in just water, and then they switch to air+ water. Making the impeller larger might be great for when the pump is running, but it will make the startup resistance alot higher, and this often leads to startup 'sputter'. The solution? Well, you can add more poles to the motor for better torque, but this also will slow its max speed unless you use some other pulse generation methods ($$$). OR, you go with DC motors. They dont sputter on startup, they have a more continuous torque through rotation...

 

[mavgi]

hahnmeister :

are you sure the 7000 can match to the BK650 , i have all of them and the 7000 look bigger then all ....

as far as the 1500 i pull 35LPM at 48watt no problem with it when i try it ricric i can pull same air different watt for example :

35LPM = 85 watt
35LPM = 58 watt
35LPM = 48 watt

i test it on another skimmer 36"x8" and it's still strong to that skimmer body , is the air star 1500 run on mesh wheel or on pin wheel ? my pump in 9" deep and run the same on 7" deep i can play with it and to adjust it any way i want it's also the same on the other pumps.....

i try to mod one external to a friend and i think to drill it but since the 1500 block look to small i thinking to do it on the 5000 (to be safety with the hole) , did you try the air star Ricric ?

 

[victor90]

Mavgi,

The skimmer foam looks really good. That would be great if you can get the pump to 45/min without it overheating. Please post pics when you get your skimmer done

 

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12156830#post12156830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ATB USA
Mavgi,

The skimmer foam looks really good. That would be great if you can get the pump to 45/min without it overheating. Please post pics when you get your skimmer done

Victor ,

i start and stop because few reason.... i realy wait to see the new DC pumps on the BK skimmer the controller on the Sicce and the performance of them ..... after that i will decide meantime my skimmer work great and i do it more for fun .

 

[victor90]

Mavgi
you should try the monster 4200 Hans designed a new volute that will make this pump do 5000/hr to 6000/hr

 

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12156926#post12156926 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ATB USA
Mavgi
you should try the monster 4200 Hans designed a new volute that will make this pump do 5000/hr to 6000/hr

for this size of pump i need to skim all my neighborhood :lol:

 

[victor90]

mavgi
I think you are right
I'll post pictures when we are done
all that for around 100 watts

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12156829#post12156829 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
hahnmeister :

are you sure the 7000 can match to the BK650 , i have all of them and the 7000 look bigger then all ....

as far as the 1500 i pull 35LPM at 48watt no problem with it when i try it ricric i can pull same air different watt for example :

35LPM = 85 watt
35LPM = 58 watt
35LPM = 48 watt

i test it on another skimmer 36"x8" and it's still strong to that skimmer body , is the air star 1500 run on mesh wheel or on pin wheel ? my pump in 9" deep and run the same on 7" deep i can play with it and to adjust it any way i want it's also the same on the other pumps.....

i try to mod one external to a friend and i think to drill it but since the 1500 block look to small i thinking to do it on the 5000 (to be safety with the hole) , did you try the air star Ricric ?

NO no no... the current 7000 is the 220v version of the 2000 motorblocks. Im not talking about the older pumps. If you check the lagunaponds.com site for the manuals, you will see:
http://www.lagunaponds.com/lagunaeng/manuels/max_flow.pdf?link=1401

 

[victor90]

Mavgi

I have a question how do you think the DC pump will improve protein skimming
Also adjustable pump

 

[mavgi]

hahnmeister

i see that now you talk about the 220 volt...

Victor:

i believe you will get even less then 100 watt about 80-90watt , it's also depend on the skimmer body after Hahn will match it and adjust the pump for the right performance , any way good luck with it.

as far as the DC pump you have more option to play with air intake a flow low energy and easy tuning you can put wider impeller on small pump and save energy also the different hertz dosen't reflect on the dc pump (i try it on big dc motor with cnc machine) , how it will perform compare the standard pump this we know all after we will test them on real in our system.... but if you can use pump with 48watt and pull your 5000LPH you save a lot energy and $$$ on the electric bill .

 

[victor90]

sorry double post

 

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12157090#post12157090 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ATB USA
dp

i talk about the DC pump not on the laguna 4200 , on this pump i believe you can be between 80-100watt .

Edit: now my post look strange

 

[JCTewks]

Jon, Michael, Victor, Kentrob, et al....

Any ideas on how to make one of these handle head pressure without sacrificing how cool (or hot) the pump runs or sacrificing too many watts (keep it within factory specs).

I'm wanting to build a tall cylinder body with a cone enck transition into the collection cup. I will fabricate the cylinder, cone, bottom box, and collection cup myself and purchase cast tube for the actual neck. The cylinder will be 24-30" tall 10"dia, the cone will be 20-24"tall with a 10" base and 6.5"-7"dia x 10" tall neck, with a 14" x 20" x 6-8" box at the bottom and a 8" bubble plate...so a 6'+ tall skimmer total height. I'm anticipating the water level being about 1/3rd up the cone....so looking at aprox 4' of total head. I would like to do 1800-2000lph of air.

The 1500 would work and do those LPM #'s if it were not so tall, and my thought was to oversize the pump to a 2400/7000 to compensate for the head loss. WIll I still be able to get enough air with 4' on a 2400/7000...or will I blow the top off of the skimmer? I have also goven thought to mounting the pump inside of the bottom box to eliminate cooling issues...butm it seems like a pain to have to dismantle the ENTIRE skimmer just to access the pump. Draining it to work on an external pump is not a huge issue...but having 1/2hr just in getting to the pump seems exessive

BTW, it is the old 7000 that mavgi was talking about.

Thoughts?

 

[reef bloke]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12156714#post12156714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
I believe it is the motor for the Laguna 7500 (220v/50hz version of the 2000/2400/2900). I think all the RD skimmer pumps are based on this motor actually, just the volutes/restrictions are changed. I have not seen a 4200 used by them, as that is a much larger block (4200gph). The only exception would be the 1500 motorblock, which is used for all the mini RD's (the 600/900/1300 all need shaft supports on the inlet like an eheim/sicce, etc). The thing is, if rather than modifying the electrical properties of the pump to get the desired results (Royal's method), just the water end of the pump was modified to match the motor when turned into a skimmer pump (my design/ATB's), you can produce 2000-level air with the 1500 motorblocks, along with better air/water ratio. Klaus himself has noted that the 'ideal' skimmer pump would be a 1:1 air to water ratio, yet the RD's get something like 3:1 at best. The specs I gave ATB get about 2:1. Makes you wonder, eh?

The 7500 should be it, but I dont know that this alone will be enough, as you would almost need to add the anti-lime loop to cool the motor back down. The magnets are swapped out??? on some models to vary the performance, which makes the motors run hotter (rms wattage drops, but VA not so much, so PF goes down), and thats the reason for the anti-lime loop (along with less clearance around the magnet for water flow, so the anti-lime loop is needed or else calcium will build up faster). By leaving the electric end alone, and just modding the water end to match the motor when used as a skimmer (the mix of air and water with a needle/mesh impeller produces less resistance than pure water, so you compensate by making the 'wet end' components that much larger), the motors dont run as hot, and the lime loop isnt needed. You also get better air/water ratios, better longevity (its operating cooler and very close to original pump specs rather than a 100/120 watt motor restricted back to say... 58W RMS). Sure, they have the power factor correction chip/circuits in them, but they can only do so much. If you start telling this 100 watt pump to operate at only 48 watts... you have other problems to deal with.

Like I mentioned in the email to you Tony, if you could send a pic of two of the motor, or post them here, I could tell you for sure. The thing is going to be... what about that lime loop? ATB pumps dont need it so much because they arent restricted and maintain the original Laguna cooling method (and almost the same water flow), but I bet if you run a RD w/o it you will see a much faster rate of calcium buildup. At the least, you would need to clean the pump/soak it in vinegar more often to compensate.

If it was 110v/60hz, I would say you should just get an Airstar 1500 with a meshwheel, as they get 2250lph... and be done with it. But the 220v/50hz version of the ATB airstar does only about 1500-1800lph from what I remember.

Hi Hahn
Ive responded to your mail with pictures,i was thinking of drilling the lime port in the new pump but im not sure i want to risk ruining the pump.
If i do decide to drill and i dont hit any electrical components is there a posiibility water may creep between the well lining and the resin?
Cheers Tony

 

[hahnmeister]

Tony, I responded in your email. It looks like Mavgi has done more 'ripping apart' than I have. I try to make the volute so an anti-lime loop isnt needed in the first place, so I never tried drilling. Since the configuration of the motor should be the same as the ones Klaus gets, in theory, if you drill a small hole just like the one he makes, you shouldnt have a problem. I cant imagine that this hole gets lined with anything again or something... like an epoxy or resin... ??? Mavgi might be your man on this one. Considering how I saw your RD volutes were opened up, you may not need the lime loop anyways. If it was me, I would go without one for a while and see how the lime buildup is, and just soak it in vinegar every couple months to keep it in check.

 

[hahnmeister]

JCTewks, by definition, a good efficient needlewheel pump isnt good at head pressure. The best needlewheels are low-wattage, high flow, low-pressure pond pumps. To regain pressure handling, you need to have the impeller take up more of the volute (so the water cant simply slip back around the space the impeller doesnt occupy). Smaller outlet piping, etc. Now, a needlewheel or asperating pump as well, in its very concept, is not going to be good at pressure handling because of how its used. The needlewheel pumps which do handle depth better can do so because they have air to water ratios that move alot more water, since water is less sensitive to the back pressure, so to maintain flow of air better, the water flow can be kept the same easier (that didnt come out right, but I hope Im coming across okay). A Sicce PSK 2500, for instance, has a ratio of about 1:1.5 and is very sensitive to head pressure. An Oceanrunner 3500/3700, OTOH, is a 900gph pump that only does 800lph at most, and as a consequence, it can run on a 6' tall body. The thing is, with larger impellers, smaller volutes, and more water flow, you are no longer in the realm where needlewheels hold a huge advantage. My suggestion would be to look into a beckett, venturi, etc, as these methods can work against back-pressure much better... although the air:water ratios arent as good. But the wattage of a pressure pump on a venturi will drop against the back pressure to the point that a needlewheel may not hold an advantage.

OR, force feeding the needlewheel with an Alita pump. This is perhaps the most efficient method, as this combo places relatively low back pressure on the air pump (because the pump is helping it) or the water pump (because the air pump is helping it). Doing this, you can even go above the air throughput that the pump would have otherwise on its own, esp if you remove the venturi and just have the air T'ed into the pump's inlet (which opens up the flow of the pump). An Alita (or similar GAST linear air pump) moves alot of air for low wattage. When I wanted to run a 6' tall skimmer, that was my choice. Then the pressure handling of the skimmer pump isnt even a topic. I believe Bean Animal was doing the same thing with his 7' tall 'skinny' beast. A small pump like an eheim 1260, but with an Alita force feeding it to make up for the height.

 

[JCTewks]

gotcha

I was hoping to be able to run this without an airpump force feeding it. In your opinion, what's the MAX head a modded laguna can handle? If I do away with the bottom nbox, and make the cone a little shorter, I could do a 30-36" water/head line...IIRC Mavgi stated at one point that he was able to get the maxflo5000 to do 110 SCFH at 80w and 36" of head pressure. I understand that aspirating pumps by nature are less able to deal with high heads....But my thought is that If I oversize the pump I'll be able to compensate for that without using the electricity that it takes to run a becket/DD/venturi skimmer. would you agree with that line of thinking, or do you think that even a large pump like the older style 7000 would still not be able to put out 40-50lpm at 4'of head without forcefeeding?