DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

[prugs]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9721343#post9721343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
here are some pics with descriptions.
this is half the volute. notice the similarities to a tunze.

the other half, showing the impeller.

here is the impeller. notice the intake (center) its ducted.

here is a side view of the impeller. you can see the blades.

I have a spare Poseidon PS2 that looks very simular on the inside. It's rated for 650gph at 3ft with 98watts. I'm going to make a venturi for it & stick an air & watt meter on it.
Anyone see any dissadvantage to an external pump?

 

[Stile2]

Can we use the Laguna 3000 pump external? BK has external versions are they the same pump?

 

[hahnmeister]

The original, first generation viper was not. It was a retuned V-10 truck engine out of cast iron.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9730022#post9730022 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fewells
The truck v10 and the viper v10 are 2 different monsters. the truck is all cast iron parts and the viper is aluminum. the engine in the rt10 is a viper engine.

Anyway.............This is an awesome idea. I am following along I have a bunch of ac 5000's laying around. I LOVE DIY

 

[hahnmeister]

Well, I hope Klaus doesnt mind me posting his PM to me here, but from the content, he really shouldnt.

"Dear Jon...
wow, nice Thread.... US-guys want make a RD-Clone ? The Red Dragon Motorblocks are not the Standart Laguna-Pumps. Askoll make for RE custom made motorblocks and change the Elektronic, the speed and the torque..... we dont using the Carbon/rubber bearings, we make self the bearings from Siliciumcarbid, the hardest bearing material... for skimmers you must have the Anti-Calzium-Line, when not this part, the pump is destroyed by airintake more as 1000 L/H . We changing the Ceramic-shaft to Wolframcarbide, this shaft is better as ceramic. Ceramic breakable by airintake more as 1000 L/h. The ceramic shaft dont can running fast dry...
It is not easy for make a RD-Copy. We are ordert mor as 1000 pices per order of this custommade Motorblocks....

best regards... Klaus"

 

[Inflames]

All that just to mix some air and water.

 

[douggiestyle]

me think bean as right when winding change was not same he said.

oh well, that doesnt mean something much better than stock can not be done.

 

[hahnmeister]

What does this mean for the DIY? Well... some things to watch out for... like wear on the ceramic shaft/supports, possibly getting a replacement for it, etc. While there are some features to the RD pumps that help it more resistant to breakdown, those features are there because the pumps are also running at a different speed (faster from that I gather) and torque. Our DIY versions may not have that problem because they wont be running at say... 3600 rpm... they will be running at 1800 (just a guess). So the anti-lime line and stronger shaft may not be problems. The features of the RD to make it more wear-resistant are only needed because of its own design drawbacks in a way... much like the Bubbleking skimmers: can you imagine a BK skimmer w/o a bubble plate? that skimmer would be a whirlpool... the single large pump on such a low and wide skimmer body is why the bubble plate is needed. If it were run with 4 smaller pumps, the bubble plate wouldnt be as big a deal.

How can a DIY compete then if we cant get as fast of pumps? I think thats going to be the challenge.

Im thinking diameter. The larger the diameter of the volute, the more potential throughput of air. Hey, look at the needlewheel dart/snapper... they didnt change the motor, and they got great results.

The actual speed of the impeller in rpm translates into different actual rotational speeds for the contents of the volute. If you have two volutes going 1800rpm, and one that is 2" in diameter, and the other 4", the speed of the contents of the volute at the outermost edge of the volute with the 4" diameter will be 2x that of the 2" diameter. So we may still be able to get the throughput we desire with the lower rpm speed as long as the pumps have enough torque. The torque will determine how large of an impeller we can run on the pump before it stalls/chatters. A smaller impeller on a larger volute will mean less head-handling capacity... so if we start placing this pump on a skimmer that is too tall, the water in the volute will slow down due to back-pressure.

Its just a big balancing act.

 

[ivgonmad]

I have an aquaclear 901, will this work and if so where should I look for info on the mod, this thread has gotten super hard to follow!!!

 

[Inflames]

You can do it Hahn. You just need some motivation. Here ya go..

Do it for them hahn...dont let the girls down, they NEED a diy red dragon.

 

[quangtam7]

Here is the video of it in 55g tank, is so turbulent in 5 gallon bucket that I think I will need a diffuser in 8" skimmer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5tXbrvIseE

 

[hahnmeister]

Theres no way to know for sure w/o an air meter on there though... Ive been able to fill up the entire surface of a 40B (more surface area than a 55g) with bubbles from only a 12-18scfh pump, so the video, although it looks like alot of output, doesnt tell us how much of that is actually water, and how much is air. C'mon man... get a flow meter!
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/flow/SeriesRMPrice.cfm

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9740862#post9740862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
me think bean as right when winding change was not same he said.

oh well, that doesnt mean something much better than stock can not be done.

Hehe, why do you guys even bother doubting me... I rarely speak out of turn unless I know what I am talking about

 

[gman107]

which type or model # air meter would you recommend ???

 

[douggiestyle]

where are you coming up with the 3600 rpms and 1800 rpms. is there a spec that i missed someplace.

 

[blfuller123]

I dont know if I buy into using those materials that Klaus talks about. I am sure they dont hurt, but I dont know that they are required. Show me some real time use on these pumps and I might think a little different. Until then, I think you guys are on the right track.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Well a lot depends on the number of poles... But hans used the next logical AC motor speed.

In a nutshell...

There are 60 seconds in 1 minute...

Here in the US of A we have 60Hz power...That means the the sine wave crosses ZERO (2) times per second....

So 60 x 60 = 3600 x 2 = 7200 RPMS for a theoretical "single pole" motor.

A (2) pole motor would spin at 7200/2 = 3600 RPM no load (about 3450 after phase lag/slip)

A (4) pole motor would spin at 7200 / 4 = 1800 RPM no load (about 1725 after phase lag/slip) ahem... Power Factor

A (6) pole motor would spin at 7200/6 = 1200 no load (1050 loaded)

A (12) pole motor would spin at 7200/12 = 600 no load (think washing machine)

A (16) pole motor would spin at 7200/16 = 450 no load RPM (washing machings, and other heavy duty low RPM applications)

I leave it to you to figure out how we get AC motors that turn faster than 3600 RPM

 

[hahnmeister]

Convert to DC and fuhghetaboutit! Lol.

douggiestyle, Im just throwing those numbers out there as possible numbers. I dont know for sure, but they are very common.

 

[smjtkj]

So how are you progressing on the build Han? I am waiting on a powerjet 5000 and a max jet 2000 to mod. Do you have the volute built yet?

Mike

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yeah I am kinda waiting to see this myself...

Hurry hans, hurry. (wasn't that a cheesy line from die hard?)

 

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9743227#post9743227 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Well a lot depends on the number of poles... But hans used the next logical AC motor speed.

In a nutshell...

There are 60 seconds in 1 minute...

Here in the US of A we have 60Hz power...That means the the sine wave crosses ZERO (2) times per second....

So 60 x 60 = 3600 x 2 = 7200 RPMS for a theoretical "single pole" motor.

A (2) pole motor would spin at 7200/2 = 3600 RPM no load (about 3450 after phase lag/slip)

A (4) pole motor would spin at 7200 / 4 = 1800 RPM no load (about 1725 after phase lag/slip) ahem... Power Factor

A (6) pole motor would spin at 7200/6 = 1200 no load (1050 loaded)

A (12) pole motor would spin at 7200/12 = 600 no load (think washing machine)

A (16) pole motor would spin at 7200/16 = 450 no load RPM (washing machings, and other heavy duty low RPM applications)

I leave it to you to figure out how we get AC motors that turn faster than 3600 RPM

thanks but, i understood that. that is why i was asking. my first impression would be that it is a 2 pole motor therefore running at 3600 rpm. im assuming that i am correct in stating, most of your brushless pumps used in the aquarium industry are 2 pole. though ive never taken apart the larger units.