DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

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LAGUNA 1500 mods

LAGUNA 1500 mods

Just ordered a 1500 on ebay. ($89 shipped)

Hahn, what worked best for youon the 1500?

Anyone have pictures of the venturi mods for this one?
 
Its a good thing that I messed up that bubble plate and happened on to that bleed hole huh Hahn?

Its been really great with all the skimmers that I build based on that Square BK clone.

I wonder how this pump would work with that?

Scott
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10255857#post10255857 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Well, just got back from the Foster&Smith Conference, and one of the speakers there asked me about my results, and he is interested in a final design for the Laguna 2400 for use on his 500g.

It looks like Ill be building a couple 'beasts' after all. I didnt have a reason to design the whole skimmer, as I myself dont have a tank that needs 90-120 scfh of air, but this someone else does, and has access to all the CNC machinery needed to make a few custom parts if needed (This would make custom volutes, or rather, threaded adapters for these pumps a possibility). This could get fun.

On a similar note, I saw the most recent volcano skimmer to be delivered today. You know, Spazz is using a few of my ideas that I posted a while back. He is using a tall bubble plate cylinder with a pressure relief hole in the bottom that goes back to the pump, and he put an elbow on the inlet into the bubble plate to 'spin' the contents, reducing the ability for bubbles to stagnate/combine under the plate... and the skimmer ends up with a minimal amount of 1" diameter holes now.

Hmmm... It seems like my ideas are just going to making other maker's designs better... perhaps its time to make my own monster...lol.

FWIW, there are still 3 major design mistakes that I saw right away in that new Volcano.
 
shelburn61,
The pump should be modded just like a Sicce PSK 2500 actually, just a larger venturi. I havent taken the time to perfect a venturi for that one, but 60 scfh is pretty easy to get... who knows, maybe with some 'perfecting' you could tack on another 10 scfh or so.

bosborn1, well, Spazz'z implimentation of the bubble plate is different. He angles the input so it 'spins' under the plate, and rather than 100 small holes, there are just about a couple dozen large ones. So its a bit different. Not to say yours wouldnt work... just have to try it. Its a great balancing act. Too much pressure, and you get more turbulence than you need. Too little pressure, and bubbles wont come out fast enough. You want to hit that 'sweet spot' where the pressure is just above the level where the bubbles dont come out before combining. So bleed hole or not... it depends.

ATI Bubblemasters could use a bleed hole, thats for sure. 3000lph of water and 2000lph of air through about a 7" pipe shooting up... the bubble plate isnt doing much... not like a BK at least. Drilling a few small holes around the outside of the bubble plate would work very well for that skimmer. You would think that the bubbles would fly out the sides, but no. The cyclone that the ATI's make under the bubble plate creates centrifugal pressure around the outside of the chamber, pushing the bubbles inwards (air is lighter than water), and leaving the water outwards. So if you have a few pressure relief holes around the parimeter of this chamber... you could let the water out, and leave the air for the skimmer.
 
No, the 5000 is an older model with brass in the impeller. Stick with the current models. For 90, I would just do a max-flow/power-jet 2400. They do between 90 and 120scfh depending on depth and the restriction of the venturi.
 
hahn, I was reading that some of the pump quite a bit of water in as well. Will that be the case with the 2400?
 
You mean water flow? Well, thats speculation. I havent tested it myself. All I can say is that its a 2400gph pump that is performing similar to a needlewheel dart.... a 3600gph pump. So its at least going to be a better airflow/waterflow ratio than a dart. If its 2400gph regularly, then it should be about 1000-1500gph as a threadwheel (most likely about 1200). The air is about 990gph... so that doesnt leave alot for water flow...1500gph is a liberal estimate (assuming the pump can do a full load of both air and water, but usually when ideal air intake it reached, the water throughput drops so the combined total is less than the original water throughput.
 
Hahn,

I am building my skimmer now, and I am designing the bubble plate. The outer diameter is 12", but the bubble plate I have 8" acrylic for. I was reading something about spinning the water into the plate and using a "relief". Can you help me understand these concepts?

Thanks,

Shane
 
Okay... look at the bubble plate on a BK... the pump output enters the area straight into it. The problem is that with larger plates, and sometimes ones where the holes arent machined with the same precision, you can get areas where small pockets of bubbles can get stuck, build up, etc... and then you get a parger bubble passing through the plate here & there. If you have the pump's output enter this bubble plate area at a tangent, the contents under the plate will spin. This is what ATI does, and even though there is a large area under the plate where bubbles could stagnate and collect, they cant, because the entire contents under the plate is spinning in a vortex.

Now, the relief is something else. Okay... a bubble plate means all the air and water coming into the plate is getting shot up... but you dont really need all the water. In many cases, the bubble plate may be too small in diameter to reduce turbulence, or the pump being used might move ALOT of water for the small amount of air it moves. In these cases, it helps to bleed off some of the water pressure from under the plate, and there are two ways. The goal is to bleed off as much water as possible, but not so much that the air bubbles under the plate stagnate... a 'sweet spot' of sorts. Heck, even if you cant get to this 'sweet spot', it still helps. But you dont want bubbles coming out of this hole (or you might as well just drill more holes and use a larger plate).

The first way is to use a taller bubble plate chamber... like a skimmer within a skimmer, and inject at the top of the plate. The air and water will go into the plate towards the top, and the bubbles all stay close to the top until they exit... so you can add another outlet at the bottom... a 'bleeder' so you can reduce water turbulence above the bubble plate. The best way to do this is to have a valve on this extra outlet so you can tune it, and then have this feed back into the recirculating pump somehow... or close to it. That way, if you end up with some microbubbles in the bleed, they will just get recycled into the skimmer pump.

The otherway is a bit tricky. If you look at the spinning contents of an ATI under the bubble plate... you will observe something interesting: The centrifugal force of the spin causes the heavier substance, water, to go to the outside, and the lighter substance, air bubbles, to move to the center. So, if you position it right, you can place a bleed outlet right before the water spins in front of the pump inlet again (say, if you remove the inner pump on an ATI BM250 and used it as an outlet), and you will get almost 100% water from this. Either that, or you can use multiple smaller ports around the parimeter so any one port doesnt create enough flow for the bubbles in the center of the bubble plate to wander out. You cant bleed as much with this method, because it is using the pressure/centrifugal force of the pump to sort, and the first method is using the air bubble's natural bouyancy, but it still works. I tried it on an ATI clone... and the turbulence was greatly reduced above the plate.
 
Thanks. I get the idea now.

What do you think about using the dozen or so larger holes in the bubble plate? Is that really going to be effective on a shorter skimmer or do you need something massive like the Volcano to really take advantage?
 
If you just have a dozen or so larger holes, your turbulence reduction wont be as much. On Volcanos, this works because they are also rather tall. The taller the skimmer, the less important the bubble plate.
 
This is a great thread and Hahn I thank you for all your support. I have learned alot from your posts. I have modded a 2400 and it is unblieveable how much air this thing can suck in. Just how do you make a muffler on the air intake to quiet it down?
 
Drill a piece of pipe so you can stick one piece of airline in one end, and another in the other. Then, if you can, overlap the lines inside the larger pipe... this is alot like how a car muffler works. That should shut it up. Its actually a pretty quiet air intake IMO...
 
Thanks Hahn. I'm using a 1/2" air inlet, should I use a 2" pipe? My idea for the skimmer is to use a 10" pipe, pvc because it was free. Shot the water in at the bottom. Let it swirl around then rise to a 8" pipe through a plate with holes. Rise some more to another plate, then rise a little more. A skimmer inside a skimmer. In between the two plates will be the exit. A couple of inches above the top of the 8" pipe will be the dome of the 10" body going to a 8" neck. Very much like the bubblemaster skimmers except bigger. I don't think I'll rec. the pump even though I like the idea. I want to make this short to fit under stand. Around 24", stand is 29". Would a 8" long neck be good?
 
I want to mod my Geo skimmer. There is a sedra 9000 needlewheel on there now. Could I use a Sicce PSK 2500 pump instead or is there a better pump. I am looking for a little better performance and a smaller size pump. Also could anyone give me directions or point me to the page on how to make the air intake for the modded pumps? I am a little lost on how to do that part.
Thanks
 
docwells, no offense man, but you just pulled your Ford up to a VW dealership for service. We are talking about Lagunas/RedDragons here in particular, not every needlewheel out there.

Sorry, I just dont know why you would post something like that here, unless you didnt read the thread at all before posting and the name of the thread all together.

If you have questions on 'what pump should I use' or on some other pump like the Sicce PSK 2500... there are plenty of other threads out there to ask, not to mention a large thread dedicated to the Sicce pumps themselves. These pumps are not related at all.
 
Hahnmeister,
Well, offense is taken.

I am sorry that my question was not directed at the red dragon or laguna pump. I have been throught the thread. And as I recall and have seen, there is mention of other pumps and questions about other pumps in this thread besides red dragon/ laguna. So I do not think I am as off base as you make me seem. Really I am looking for how the venturis were made. I could use a sicce pump or even a laguna.

We are all here looking for information and education not someone trying to make other look unintelligent. If you can not be helpful maybe other will. I will look in other threads for people who want to be helpful. And you do not have to reply. I am not trying to turn this into a fight in the thread. This is not the place for that.
 
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