DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

[hahnmeister]

Its not what PF means, but it is how it is used. PF is a direct multiplier in pump efficiency/motor equasions. And if the energy isnt going to moving water/air... well, it may not be all heat, but in the end, all the work being done to the system is, as you have said before. Its just nicer to have 120 watts of work being done as moving water rather than only 60, and the other 60 going directly to heat.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Hahn, I understand what PF is and that is why I commented.

No it may not end up as heat in the system. It may end up as heat in the wire, here there or someplace else. What you get billed for and what flows through the pump may be two different things.

Without getting into a very confusing conversation, just accept that you can not use PF to determine what component goes to work and what goes to heat in the tank (or room).

I suppose if it makes you feel better, it will be close enough.

 

[hahnmeister]

Right, the energy lost can go into other things besides heat, and exit the system at other places besides the pump. An air cooled pump will not put much of that excess into the water for instance. It has nothing to do with what we pay on our utilities... never brought it up.

But there are other factors beyond just PF for efficiency, although it remains a huge one. So sure, a .8 pf might not mean that all 20% of the extra energy is going directly into the water... but lets say that with water cooled its like 80% of that. But then there are other things besides PF that contribute to pump efficiency... so its a wash in the end (with water cooled). The other reason for asking the pf is to see how hard the impeller is going to be on the pump. A lower power factor does mean the pump will heat up more, and when modding pumps for needlewheel use (unless DC), you dont want to end up with a VA that is beyond the original spec of the pump.

For instance, if your pump as a water only pump was 80 watts, and a pf of .8 (like an eheim 1260), then its VA (real power) is 100 watts. If you mod that pump for air and water, and your wattage drops down to 55 watts, sure, thats great for what you pay at the meter, and for that 1262, the pf is about .55 as well, so the VA is still 100 watts. Great... not too hard on the pump because the pump was designed to run at a real power rating of 100 watts.

But lets say it wasnt so great of a pump when modded as a needlewheel/meshwheel, and the RMS wattage was 55, but the PF dropped to .4... now the pump is operating at 138 real watts... 40 watts over spec. Depending on how well the pump was made, you could burn it up.

Thats why I ask for the PF and such on these Lagunas when modded. Dont want to end up with a pump that is really pulling over 200 real watts if the motor block wasnt designed for more than 150! It could be dangerous. Usually, its not a big deal, but with some of these threadwheel mods, the wattage is jumping back up (moving more water), but the PF stays low... so the pumps are running rather hot. The Sicce PSK 2500s are an example of this. I am suspect of their longevity as threadwheels.

 

[loc01]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11188902#post11188902 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
69/142 = power factor/PF. PF helps determine efficiency, as in, how much heat the pump will be throwing off. 0.48 is on the low side, but not the worst. It just means the pump will be putting about 63 watts of heat directly into the water.

How did you get that 63w of heat?

Loc

 

[hahnmeister]

Youre right... where the heck did I get that number... hmmm... I must have not been paying attention before. 73 is more like it.

 

[hahnmeister]

Got off the phone today with Hagen. Lets just say that at this point, Im 'the man who knew too much'.

Lets just put it this way... even a lot of 1000 pumps isnt large enough for Askoll (which is Hagen) to consider making custom motorblocks.

 

[rishma]

I wonder if the king will respond to that

... even a lot of 1000 pumps isnt large enough for Askoll (which is Hagen) to consider making custom motorblocks.

 

[JCTewks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11196796#post11196796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Got off the phone today with Hagen. Lets just say that at this point, Im 'the man who knew too much'.

Lets just put it this way... even a lot of 1000 pumps isnt large enough for Askoll (which is Hagen) to consider making custom motorblocks.

Man oh Man!!! guess you really do "know too much" :lol: Or maybe you are just good at making assumptions/hypothesis' (sp?) that bring the truth to the light.

 

[lecher]

Hope they do not send a hit man after you, Hahn.

 

[hahnmeister]

Maybe I shouldnt take that trip to Germany... perhaps Austria or somewhere else (dang! I wanted to hit up the 'all you can eat' sushi place in Munich!). Time to hide in Australia... heck, New Zealand for a while.

 

[aries70]

Which Laguna ?

Which Laguna ?

Been reading this thread many times. Decided that a laguna is the right pump for my 5 Gallon water jug skimmer and 6" neck.

but I don't know which one, I was thinking one of these 1500,2000,2400 max flow but need help picking the correct one. I currently have 2 GX-2400's pulling 20 LPM between them but they are noisy as heck so any help would be apreciated. Thanks in advance
Dan

 

[hahnmeister]

Laguna 1500 would be good with a custom volute. Its the same pump as the BK mini's, only with a threadwheel it will do 1500lph. Next step up is a 2000/2400, but the flow this single large pump would produce in your 'jug' might be a little much unless you use a bubble plate.

 

[aries70]

Not sure if I would beable to do a custom volute so i guess my best bet is to figure a way to get a bubble plate inside the jug with probly a 2000. Thanks Hahn

 

[aries70]

then again the 1500 doesn't have a shft support in the intake ? then I would then beable to the volute it wouldn't need to be as "centered"

 

[hahnmeister]

No, 1500s on up dont have shaft supports, so if you can cut an acrylic/PVC disk (to go around the o-ring around the impeller), and then a 1" thick section of PVC/acrylic pipe (about 4" diameter) to glue to the disk, and then a 4" disk to act as the cover, you are half way there. Then just drill the disk I just mentioned so it can have a 1.25"ID acrylic/PVC pipe bonded to its inlet, and the only tricky part is making the outlet... you have to sort of bond the pipe at an angle to the body, at a tangent, which can make for some funky cutting/bonding angles.

Otherwise yeah... the 1500 is EAP to mod.

 

[aries70]

very cool then a 1500 it is thanks again Hahn

 

[Anthony G]

Where should we look first?

Where should we look first?

We've been following this thread since day one and finally hacked together another pump from some upcoming skimmer projects. I used a Powerjet 5000 as we had one on the shelf collecting dust. Because I didn't see anything that looked like brass, bronze, copper, plutonium, etc. we didn't do anything too drastic to the impellar ( other than hack it to bits ). I cable-tied on some mesh (four layers) just like we did with the Gen-X 4100s we used on another skimmer. The problem I'm having this RD knock off is it runs for about 3-5 seconds and then quits. Is there something I should look at before going bashugga on it? There is no possible way we're rubbing on the volute. The mesh diameter is about 1/8" to 1/4" larger than the impellar diameter.

Ideas....anyone....help.

 

[Creetin]

Youre overloading the pump, Its shutting down to protect itself. JMO
Lighten up the mesh a layer or make the diameter of the mesh smaller. JMO

 

[hahnmeister]

Yeah, the 5000 isnt so large of a pump. Also, have you replaced the volute with something larger? If not, the mesh is most likely rubbing against the inside of the volute as well.

 

[Anthony G]

Later that night

Later that night

Fantastic! I love it when the answere is simple. We pared back the mesh to no larger than the original impellar diameter. I really wanted something bigger but it's blasting away as we speak...uh, write. I don't have an air flow meter but the killawatt hovers between 76 and 80 watts.

Yep, we replaced the volute with a 4" PVC cap fitted with a tangential 1 1/4" output. If I can figure out how to post pics and get some time I'll show you how simple I am. That is if I haven't already done just that with my previous post.

One more question I guess. Right now we have a 3/8" ID air inlet. I dorked with some 3/4" stuff and it obviously would have to be valved a bit. The one thing I noticed was a big drop in the watts. What size air intake should one use? I guess I'm not anti air valve if that's what it takes.