DIY Sulfur Denitrator

[tmz]

How one can minimize aerobic activity by ORP and the same time entering enough nitrate in the reactor to remove the production of nitrate at low nitrate levels?

Figure it out ; hint increased flow at lower nitrate levels and/ or less sulfur might do it. That's all I'll say since I don't have any interest in repeating things many times over,way too many already.

Besides it would be rude and presumptuous for me to offer speculation on how CHSUB's system functions . I take him at his word and encourage trying new approaches. Personally, I don't use ORP control or monitoring for the sulfur denitrator but can envison a number of potentially useful data points and applications for it.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

How one can minimize aerobic activity by ORP and the same time entering enough nitrate in the reactor to remove the production of nitrate at low nitrate levels?

Figure it out ; hint increased flow at lower nitrate levels and/ or less sulfur might do it. That's all I'll say since I don't have any interest in repeating things many times over,way too many already.

Besides it would be rude and presumptuous for me to offer speculation on how CHSUB's system functions . I take him at his word and encourage trying new approaches. Personally, I don't use ORP control or monitoring for the sulfur denitrator but can envison a number of potentially useful data points and applications for it.

Correct information based on facts, research and experience!?

I do not have to figure it out, The answers where given.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Any sulphur based system of any size can reduce some nitrate. To reduce nitrate no reactor is needed. Just ad some sulphur to a deep sand layer. Reducing nitrate is not the same as reducing the nitrate level. Reducing the nitrate level to the desired level is an other step for which a reactor that is big enough is needed.

A sulphur based denitration system as BADESS not only reduces nitrate. It gives the user full control over the nitrate removal rate and the quantity of nitrate reduced daily. Full control over the nitrate level in the aquarium system.
A fluidized reactor that is big enough, a calcium reactor of the same size, a pump that can handle the flow needed and a flow regulating valve managed the right way. That is all!
Any sulphur based system that does not give full control to the user over the nitrate removal rate and the nitrate level in the aqua-system is NOT an improvement.

Research in waste water- and drinking water plants showed that the anaerobe denitrification zone is between + 100mv and -100mv ORP. This is a big range. ORP probes are not very sensitive for DO changes, this makes ORP very unreliable for managing a denitrator.

There are a lot other ways and systems to reduce nitrate but non of them gives the possibility to control the nitrate level, with most of them it is even not possible to predict the removal rate.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

thanks, however garbage!!!!! 15% was an estimate to convey some sulfur is being used, maybe much less, i really do not know? before starting my reactor my no3 was....nevermind, we have been through this over and over. i have nothing more to comment!!!:headwalls:

Well, To tell the truth I do suspect garbage if some things are not corrected.

Remember, at PH 8.2 more than 90% of hydrogen sulphide formed will be in the liquid form HS, when the gas H2S is smelled above the aquarium there is a lot more present in the water.

I have nothing more to comment.

 

[CHSUB]

I think the efforts to use ORP to control flow are interesting and promising. I don't know if standard ORP set points would translate to every system but your experience seems to offer a good starting point for those inclined to try ORP control.

Thanks for updating your results .

I think managing the flow to an optimal point to minimize aerobic activity vs anaerobic activity is important . I also think the size of the sulfur bed can be varied to even much lower volumes than the 1%/ 2% rules depending on nitrate levels in the system and at lesser volume might be effective at lower effluent flow rates.

Thanks…and with effort, I will try to bring this thread back to discussing and sharing ideas rather than being “taught” how to do it.

With regards to ORP, while I find the connection between readings and no3 reduction close, I do not believe it is absolute. IME and research, I believe -170 an ideal level. A greater positive number (example -50) yields an effluent with no3 present, using a Salifert kit. Using ORP is only a tool to control the reactor, simplifying its operation and avoiding the ”test and flow adjustment method”. Sizing the reactor: ime starting with a reactor 1% the size of the display is useful; however, I view this as a starting point only and by no means a “rule”. If less sulfur is needed, removing sulfur is easier than building a new reactor if more sulfur is needed; which was my case.

Having used carbon reactors in the past, methanol specifically, I find sulfur reactors perform better with lower orp and are safer, easier to manage. I did have greater no3 reduction with methanol, nevertheless.

Update on my reactor, as things have changed the last two weeks. For about the last year I have been using the smallest Eheim pump running full time (no on/off) with a full stream. ORP levels did reach -380, without any sulfur smell, so I went back to using my manifold to increase flow last week. Running wide open (max flow) orp came back to -230; however as of this morning orp is -330. I have ordered a two sized larger Eheim pump to increase flow again and further; should have ordered this pump in the first place. I will be installing this pump Tuesday. Flow measurements and turnover rates will be discussed and shared when the new pump is installed.

 

[CHSUB]

Well, To tell the truth I do suspect garbage if some things are not corrected.

Remember, at PH 8.2 more than 90% of hydrogen sulphide formed will be in the liquid form HS, when the gas H2S is smelled above the aquarium there is a lot more present in the water.

I have nothing more to comment.

when do you suspect i will need correction??? it has been over 3 years.

here is a recent pic, now if you know how to control xenia, i'm all ears!!!

[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image_zpsp07lzvtn.jpeg.html][/URL]

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Thanks"¦and with effort, I will try to bring this thread back to discussing and sharing ideas rather than being "œtaught" how to do it.

With regards to ORP, while I find the connection between readings and no3 reduction close, I do not believe it is absolute. IME and research, I believe -170 an ideal level. A greater positive number (example -50) yields an effluent with no3 present, using a Salifert kit. Using ORP is only a tool to control the reactor, simplifying its operation and avoiding the "test and flow adjustment method". Sizing the reactor: ime starting with a reactor 1% the size of the display is useful; however, I view this as a starting point only and by no means a "œrule". If less sulfur is needed, removing sulfur is easier than building a new reactor if more sulfur is needed; which was my case.

Having used carbon reactors in the past, methanol specifically, I find sulfur reactors perform better with lower orp and are safer, easier to manage. I did have greater no3 reduction with methanol, nevertheless.

Update on my reactor, as things have changed the last two weeks. For about the last year I have been using the smallest Eheim pump running full time (no on/off) with a full stream. ORP levels did reach -380, without any sulfur smell, so I went back to using my manifold to increase flow last week. Running wide open (max flow) orp came back to -230; however as of this morning orp is -330. I have ordered a two sized larger Eheim pump to increase flow again and further; should have ordered this pump in the first place. I will be installing this pump Tuesday. Flow measurements and turnover rates will be discussed and shared when the new pump is installed.

Are these ORP readings correct? Calibration!
Although this results are difficult to believe for me they may prove that a sulphur denitrator still will work in extreem conditions.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Do

Do

Sulphur bacteria perform best in reducing nitrate at DO less than 0.5ppm which must be reached on the surface of the substrate. This thus not mean the reactor must be kept anoxic( below 0.5ppm DO.) When a normal biofilm is formed a sulfur reactor performes fine with an influent of normal seawater at 25°C +- 6ppmDO and a flow of 8litre/h for each littre of sulphure present. DO of the effluent may reach 3ppm. Denitrification is measured in an aerobe bio-reactor within the biofilm at a dept of 0.3mm - 0.6mm. depending of the flow.
This is why a BADESS is easy manageable and flow can easily be adapted to adjust the nitrate removal rate which gives full control over the nitrate level and makes it possible to close the nitrogen cycle within a closed aqua culture system.
A healty balanced biofilm is what is the most important and this can not be achieved when the reactor is kept anoxic ( below 0.5ppmDO)
Reducing a bit of nitrate or having full control over the nitrate removal rate and nitrate level,?

 

[tmz]

For those interested in a cogent informative discussion of hydrogen sulfide I suggest this article by Randy Farely:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/rhf/index.php

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Orp

Orp

Randy also wrote a good article about redox potential ORP

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/

 

[tmz]

Unfrounately, some claifications are necessary:

If the quantity of sulhur can be based on the nitrate level, please tell the readers how much sulphur has to be used at a nitrate level of 50ppm or 10ppm and how much at a level of 1ppm? This question was asked previously in this threat but was never answered by you..

Asked and answered repeatedly.Read the thread. Hint it's going to vary by system and time as nitrate production and level will vary by system and within a given system which makes the unexplained and unvetted calculations on which you base your rules dubious at best. I know you also claim to know the answer anyway but I doubt it.

Remember, at PH 8.2 more than 90% of hydrogen sulphide formed will be in the liquid form HS, when the gas H2S is smelled above the aquarium there is a lot more present in the water

Not necessarily more hydrogen sulfide but variations in the proportions of the species of hydrogen sulfide more depending on pH . Sulfate reduction can produces H2S which is the toxic form in truly anoxic water(no nitrate and no free oxygen) when organic carbon is present

I do not have to figure it out, The answers where given. ( post 1799)


Then why did you ask the question?

You trend to ask then answer claiming to have known the answer all along .Easy way to deal with that is to ignore your posted questions especially when they have already been answered and the response ignored.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Amount of sulphur?

Amount of sulphur?

Unfrounately, some claifications are necessary:

If the quantity of sulhur can be based on the nitrate level, please tell the readers how much sulphur has to be used at a nitrate level of 50ppm or 10ppm and how much at a level of 1ppm? This question was asked previously in this threat but was never answered by you..

Asked and answered repeatedly.Read the thread. Hint it's going to vary by system and time as nitrate production and level will vary by system and within a given system which makes the unexplained and unvetted calculations on which you base your rules dubious at best. I know you also claim to know the answer anyway but I doubt it.

Remember, at PH 8.2 more than 90% of hydrogen sulphide formed will be in the liquid form HS, when the gas H2S is smelled above the aquarium there is a lot more present in the water

Not necessarily more hydrogen sulfide but variations in the proportions of the species of hydrogen sulfide more depending on pH . Sulfate reduction can produces H2S which is the toxic form in truly anoxic water(no nitrate and no free oxygen) when organic carbon is present

I do not have to figure it out, The answers where given. ( post 1799)


Then why did you ask the question?

You trend to ask then answer claiming to have known the answer all along .Easy way to deal with that is to ignore your posted questions especially when they have already been answered and the response ignored.

All the answers where given in this threat.

if one does not know how to calculate the amount of sufur needed one can not build a good working denitrator. Advice was given to reduce the amount of sulphur based only on the nitrate level which does not work in practice and may end in a very poorly performing reactor .
How big must a sulphur-eactor be when starting up a new high nutriênt aquaculture- or mixed reef aquarium system?
The 1% or 2% rule at less or more than 50pmm nitrate in the system is NOT only based on the nitrate level. It is a general rule based on years of experience in practice and research, an advice given by Longouet The researchers have never stated that the amount of sulphur is related to the nitrate level . They based there reactors on the findings of Martin in 1976. , the amount of nitrate to remove to attain an effluent of O nitrate, taking in account the flow needed to remove the amount of nitrate needed. Martin tested how much nitrate could be removed by 1littre of sulphur using seawater at different flowrates and nitrate levels. 1 litre sulphur can remove 800mg nitrate daily at 100%, the influent vacuum treated. He also set the maximum flowrate at 8Liter/liter S /hour DO 25°c.
For a BADESS the daily nitrate production to remove to keep the nitrate level steady was added to the formula to determine the sulphur quantity needed and the volume of the reactor.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

amounth of sulphur

amounth of sulphur

The 1% or 2% rule at less or more than 50pmm nitrate in the system is NOT only based on the nitrate level. It is a general rule based on years of experience in practice and research, an advice given by Longouet The researchers have never stated that the amount of sulphur is related to the nitrate level . They based there reactors on the findings of Martin in 1976. , the amount of nitrate to remove to attain an effluent of O nitrate, taking in account the flow needed to remove the amount of nitrate needed. Martin tested how much nitrate could be removed by 1littre of sulphur using seawater at different flowrates and nitrate levels. 1 litre sulphur can remove 800mg nitrate daily at 100%, the influent vacuum treated. He also set the maximum flowrate at 8Liter/liter S /hour DO 25°c.
For a BADESS the daily nitrate production to remove to keep the nitrate level steady was added to the formula to determine the sulphur quantity needed and the volume of the reactor.
In a BADESS not only the nitrate in the influent is removed but also the nitrite and nitrate from nitrification and partial nitrification. At low nitrate levels (high flow) a BADESS is mixotropic. It is a mix of anaerobe and aerobe processes, heterotrophe and autotrophe, dependable of the influents composition and the flowrate. DO, Nitrate and ammonia as key factors as there is always enough phosphate and CO2 to support the bacterial growth. All this when enough place and substrate ( sulphur) is provided.

 

[CHSUB]

The 1% or 2% rule at less or more than 50pmm nitrate in the system is NOT only based on the nitrate level. It is a general rule based on years of experience in practice and research, an advice given by Longouet The researchers have never stated that the amount of sulphur is related to the nitrate level . They based there reactors on the findings of Martin in 1976. , the amount of nitrate to remove to attain an effluent of O nitrate, taking in account the flow needed to remove the amount of nitrate needed. Martin tested how much nitrate could be removed by 1littre of sulphur using seawater at different flowrates and nitrate levels. 1 litre sulphur can remove 800mg nitrate daily at 100%, the influent vacuum treated. He also set the maximum flowrate at 8Liter/liter S /hour DO 25°c.
For a BADESS the daily nitrate production to remove to keep the nitrate level steady was added to the formula to determine the sulphur quantity needed and the volume of the reactor.
In a BADESS not only the nitrate in the influent is removed but also the nitrite and nitrate from nitrification and partial nitrification. At low nitrate levels (high flow) a BADESS is mixotropic. It is a mix of anaerobe and aerobe processes, heterotrophe and autotrophe, dependable of the influents composition and the flowrate. DO, Nitrate and ammonia as key factors as there is always enough phosphate and CO2 to support the bacterial growth. All this when enough place and substrate ( sulphur) is provided.

you are claiming different things throughout this thread. here is an example: in post # 1623 you state, "When using BADESS it is not mandatory that the effluent has 0 nitrate." In this post you state all work is done based on 0 no3 effluent(bolded). your way is not the only "right" way!!!! i'm yet to see anyone else turn their tank over daily with any kind of denitrator, sulfur or otherwise.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

you are claiming different things throughout this thread. here is an example: in post # 1623 you state, "When using BADESS it is not mandatory that the effluent has 0 nitrate." In this post you state all work is done based on 0 no3 effluent(bolded). your way is not the only "right" way!!!! i'm yet to see anyone else turn their tank over daily with any kind of denitrator, sulfur or otherwise.

O nitrate effluent is what the reactors of Martin en Co where based on,

A sulphur denitrator is NOT a carbon bades denitrator. Most people manage a sulphur reactor the same way. This explains the very poor results.
If the advice given by Longouet 15 years ago is follewed one becomes a good working reactor; That is what we have done. After being confronted with poor results and failures of other users on different fora we tried to find out why?

To lower the nitrate level only more as the daily production has to be removed.
If the nitrate production is 2ppm/daily and the nitrate level is 40ppm ( +- 10 ppm NO3-N) in the influent the effluent may contain still 9ppm total N. This way the reactor is managed at high flow which will install DO reducers from the beginning.. As the nitrate removal rate is +- 1ppm NO3-N the reactor will have a 0 nitrate effluent when the nitrate level has reached +- 4ppm ( 1ppm NO3-N) . To lower the nitrate level to 1ppm flow has to be increased x4 to make it possible to remove the same daily produced amount of 2ppm nitrate. The reactor must be able to reduce 4x more DO.

When a O effluent is kept from the start and flow is not increased when the nitrate level descends the reactor will not be able to remove enough DO and nitrate to become self-regulating at the desired low nitrate level if that level can be reached.

There are different ways to do it!

There is no my way. There is the way which makes it possible to have full control over the nitrate level in the system and there are other ways which are able to remove some nitrate.
A BADESS uses the O effluent way when first used as a problem solver to reduce uncontrollable high nitrate levels as it is a lot faster but needs more management during the nitrate level decent. All was explained in this threat.
Using reactors with closed loop that are big enough and correct management to cultivate the bio-film needed makes it possible to reduce enough nitrate at the high DO and inflow which is needed to become a self-regulating nitrate removal system at low nitrate levels.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

A very effective, reliable and controllable nitrate removal system.

A very effective, reliable and controllable nitrate removal system.

i'm yet to see anyone else turn their tank over daily with any kind of denitrator, sulfur or otherwise.

Sulphur denitrators are supposed to be used in nutrient rich aquarium systems. The big advantage of using a sulphur denitrator system is that it makes it possible to combine a low nitrate level and high water quality at a high feeding rate as necessary for a nutrient demanding mixed reef aquarium.

You have a low nutrient system as it is enough to pass the systems volume true the reactor once every 15-20 days to keep the level at 2 ppm. Your system is almost in balance without the denitrator..

A normal mixed reef system produces 10-15 ppm nitrate on a weekly base, but let us keep it at 1ppm daily for easy calculations. How one can keep the nitrate level at 1 ppm ? Well , by passing the total systems volume true the reactor while maintaining 0 nitrate effluent every day.
Is there an other way? The reactor is not able to remove what is not entered.

All systems build and managed following the advice of Longouet (Longouet, Marc. "œLa biodénitratation autotrophe sur soufre en aquarium marin | Récifal".http://recifal.fr/chimie-de-laquarium-recifal/.) are able to do this. Some modifications are made as using fluidized bed reactors with closed loop for easy management.
Now we also know why.
A BADESS is based on the reactors build by Martin, Longouet and Co. It is the way it is managed that makes a BADESS what it is. A very effective, reliable and controllable nitrate removal system.

 

[CHSUB]

You have a low nutrient system as it is enough to pass the systems volume true the reactor once every 15-20 days to keep the level at 2 ppm. Your system is almost in balance without the denitrator..

STOP TELLING ME ABOUT MY SYSTEM!!!!!!! you have no idea about my system. Before installing denitrator, no3 would get as high as 50 ppm, now 2 ppm or lower. System water should not pass daily, imo, ime, in my research; mine currently takes 8-10 days!!!!!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Relaiability!

Relaiability!

STOP TELLING ME ABOUT MY SYSTEM!!!!!!! you have no idea about my system. Before installing denitrator, no3 would get as high as 50 ppm, now 2 ppm or lower. System water should not pass daily, imo, ime, in my research; mine currently takes 8-10 days!!!!!

Based on your posts now and in the past.
I do research about systems where BADES is involved., Follow fora all over the world, and all info I get is catalogued in a Zotero database. I will remove the information collected about your system as it seems unreliable or not correctly copied by me.
Sorry for this.

There must have been big changes in bioload in the system which have nothing to do with the denitrator. Whit current info it would still take 250 days for the nitrate to build up to 50ppm (12.5ppm NO3-N) without a denitrator and without water changes.
Still the system can be of use for me as an example for the reliability of a sulphur denitrator as it proves functioning fine in what I should call extreme circumstances. I do mension it as an example in the Makazi Baharini wiki ( Where my research and research from others about BADES and guidelines for managing the BADESSystem are published) without refering.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Flow and nitrate removal rate.

Flow and nitrate removal rate.

The reason why the volume of reactors used in a BADESS are based on the daily removal rate to remove the daily production every day, by passing the total volume of the aquarium system true the reactor daily, is because we want the flow to be high enough for cultivating a biofilm with a very active oxygen consuming outer layer creating OMZ ( Oygen Minimum Zone) in the lower layers of the film. This makes managing the nitrate removal rate a simple task and makes it possible to close the nitrogen cycle within a closed aquarium system.

 

[CHSUB]

Based on your posts now and in the past.
I do research about systems where BADES is involved., Follow fora all over the world, and all info I get is catalogued in a Zotero database. I will remove the information collected about your system as it seems unreliable or not correctly copied by me.
Sorry for this.

There must have been big changes in bioload in the system which have nothing to do with the denitrator. Whit current info it would still take 250 days for the nitrate to build up to 50ppm (12.5ppm NO3-N) without a denitrator and without water changes.
Still the system can be of use for me as an example for the reliability of a sulphur denitrator as it proves functioning fine in what I should call extreme circumstances. I do mension it as an example in the Makazi Baharini wiki ( Where my research and research from others about BADES and guidelines for managing the BADESSystem are published) without refering.

you, nor anyone else, could possible know all the sinks for no3 in a reef system. a sulfur denitrator is one of many that i use, including water changes, macro algae filled fug, etc.... even with large water changes no3 was hard to control before a sulfur denitrator was installed over 3 years ago. fish load has increased and now no3 is easier to control. i have access to larger amounts of NSW and even with frequent, large water changes no3 was 50 ppm.

i can store 1000 gallons of NSW and get delivery of up to 2500 gallons cheaply.

here is my salt water guy!!!

[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/photowc_zps1c01819b.jpg.html][/URL]