CHSUB
"Certified Hobby Expert"
what is a "normal mixed reef system"????? every system is different!!!! applying "rules" makes no sense. this is not a math class; it's a living ecosystem, it is never constant!!!!!
DIY Sulfur Denitrator
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
what is a "normal mixed reef system"????? every system is different!!!! applying "rules" makes no sense. this is not a math class; it's a living ecosystem, it is never constant!!!!!
Belgian Anthias
New member
The info you gave is not the result of using the denitrator but is a result of a combination with other methods.? This makes the results a lot more acceptable.
By managing the denitrator used correctly the system can easily be transferred to become a BADESS which will remove the nitrate production and keep the level steady without other nitrate removal methods. Water changes would only be necessary to correct other parameters.
Belgian Anthias
New member
Calcium and alkalinity
Calcium and alkalinity
Building the denitrator is only one part of a sulfur denitrator system.
it is advised to use at least the same quantity of calcium carbonate as sulphur used, in a separate reactor. This will compensate the alkalinity loss caused by the nitrate removal and ad some calcium. This reactor can be the calcium reactor used for the moment if one is present. Less CO2 must be dosed to correct the calcium consumption within the aquarium system.
As these reactors are not pressurized, every container suitable for seawater which can be water closed is suitable to build the reactors as the reactors are equipped with a closed loop for regulation of the intern flow to become fluidized reactors. Vessels, barrels, drums, buckets, bottles and other containers with a big lid are my favourite because they are easy accessible.
Calcium and alkalinity
Building the denitrator is only one part of a sulfur denitrator system.
it is advised to use at least the same quantity of calcium carbonate as sulphur used, in a separate reactor. This will compensate the alkalinity loss caused by the nitrate removal and ad some calcium. This reactor can be the calcium reactor used for the moment if one is present. Less CO2 must be dosed to correct the calcium consumption within the aquarium system.
As these reactors are not pressurized, every container suitable for seawater which can be water closed is suitable to build the reactors as the reactors are equipped with a closed loop for regulation of the intern flow to become fluidized reactors. Vessels, barrels, drums, buckets, bottles and other containers with a big lid are my favourite because they are easy accessible.
Belgian Anthias
New member
Normal?
Normal?
The "normal" daily nitrate production of a "normal" mixed reef is the average off a lot of different mixed reef systems followed up. Only systems that have or had nitrate problems are followed up. Only a few are real mixed reef aquaria in my point of view. When talking about daily nitrate production one can talk about the total nitrate production or the daily nitrate over-production. I talk about the daily nitrate production which can be measured or calculated. When talking about nitrate levels, are we talking about NO3 or NO3-N? It makes a big difference for determining the reactor 's volume. if comparisons are made it is important to know how the results where attained and measured..
But, what is "normal" ?
Without maths everything would be based on previous failure. What a mess this would be!
Normal?
The "normal" daily nitrate production of a "normal" mixed reef is the average off a lot of different mixed reef systems followed up. Only systems that have or had nitrate problems are followed up. Only a few are real mixed reef aquaria in my point of view. When talking about daily nitrate production one can talk about the total nitrate production or the daily nitrate over-production. I talk about the daily nitrate production which can be measured or calculated. When talking about nitrate levels, are we talking about NO3 or NO3-N? It makes a big difference for determining the reactor 's volume. if comparisons are made it is important to know how the results where attained and measured..
But, what is "normal" ?
Without maths everything would be based on previous failure. What a mess this would be!
Belgian Anthias
New member
Nitrate level!
Nitrate level!
A BADESS needs a constant supply of nitrate and a controlled amount of DO to sustain the biofilm. Because off the flow and DO entered nitrate and nitrite is produced in the reactor due to nitrification and partial nitrification. A BADESS will still work with an influent containing a nitrate level below normal test kit reading and use the internal nitrate and nitrite production . To reduce 6ppm DO to 2ppm DO theoretical more than 5ppm nitrate may be produced if enough ammonia ( +- 1.3 ppm) is available. In practice heterotrops will outcompete the autotrops using part of the biomass from the biofilm renewal using DO and nitrate.
To build in security and make easy management possible the nitrate level is best kept at a minimum level +- 1 ppm.
Fish only tanks with a big bio-load will have a lot more production but in fish only tanks a nitrate level of 20 ppm or more is acceptable which makes it possible to remove a lot more nitrate with the same reactor. A reactor that can remove 2ppm nitrate daily at a nitrate level of 1ppm will easily remove 10 ppm daily at a level of 20 ppm and a lot more.
Nitrate level!
A BADESS needs a constant supply of nitrate and a controlled amount of DO to sustain the biofilm. Because off the flow and DO entered nitrate and nitrite is produced in the reactor due to nitrification and partial nitrification. A BADESS will still work with an influent containing a nitrate level below normal test kit reading and use the internal nitrate and nitrite production . To reduce 6ppm DO to 2ppm DO theoretical more than 5ppm nitrate may be produced if enough ammonia ( +- 1.3 ppm) is available. In practice heterotrops will outcompete the autotrops using part of the biomass from the biofilm renewal using DO and nitrate.
To build in security and make easy management possible the nitrate level is best kept at a minimum level +- 1 ppm.
Fish only tanks with a big bio-load will have a lot more production but in fish only tanks a nitrate level of 20 ppm or more is acceptable which makes it possible to remove a lot more nitrate with the same reactor. A reactor that can remove 2ppm nitrate daily at a nitrate level of 1ppm will easily remove 10 ppm daily at a level of 20 ppm and a lot more.
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Theokie
New member
I know this thread has sorta stalled out, but I do have a question I am hoping I can get some words of wisdom on.
I currently have a Sulfur based recirculating reactor that has taken my 300 gallon system from 50ppm down to 1.5 ppm. It is working well. I'm just wondering If I should increase the length of my feed line, think mini coil denitrator, in order to have a larger anerobic area within my reactor chamber. Presently I'm running about 6ft of 1/4 tubing as my feed and I'm pushing about 350mL per minute through my reactor. I do not have any detectable H2S smell on my effluent. I'm really just trying to get that last little bit of nitrate down, as the effect of the overall reduction on my tank has been amazing.
My unit is fed with a Master flex peristaltic pump, so putting an additional 25ft of tubing in place would not effect the overall flow rate. I'm in the planning stages of redoing my fish room and getting all the filtration down pat for the heavy bio load I keep is very important before I scale up.
I currently have a Sulfur based recirculating reactor that has taken my 300 gallon system from 50ppm down to 1.5 ppm. It is working well. I'm just wondering If I should increase the length of my feed line, think mini coil denitrator, in order to have a larger anerobic area within my reactor chamber. Presently I'm running about 6ft of 1/4 tubing as my feed and I'm pushing about 350mL per minute through my reactor. I do not have any detectable H2S smell on my effluent. I'm really just trying to get that last little bit of nitrate down, as the effect of the overall reduction on my tank has been amazing.
My unit is fed with a Master flex peristaltic pump, so putting an additional 25ft of tubing in place would not effect the overall flow rate. I'm in the planning stages of redoing my fish room and getting all the filtration down pat for the heavy bio load I keep is very important before I scale up.
djbon
New member
I built this http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2587610 and it works very well. Maybe you can build this in addition to your sulfur denitrator.
ayrkpatrickla
New member
I'm currently not adjusting my alk .. i do have a kalk reactor sitting around thats not hooked up, and a gal of each ingredient of randy's 3 part.
CHSUB
"Certified Hobby Expert"
if you look at the top left of the pic you can see 30 feet of 1/4" OD tubing coiled up before my sulfur reactor. i'm not sure it has had much of an effect, however i'm not planning on removing it.
[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image.jpg1_zpsuzaa9ilq.jpg.html]
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Belgian Anthias
New member
if you look at the top left of the pic you can see 30 feet of 1/4" OD tubing coiled up before my sulfur reactor. i'm not sure it has had much of an effect, however i'm not planning on removing it.
[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image.jpg1_zpsuzaa9ilq.jpg.html][/URL]
You are removing +- 700 mg of nitrate daily for the moment if your effluent is kept at 0 nitrate. If the level stays steady at 1.5 ppm, 700mg/day is your daily nitrate production. To remove the same quantity of nitrate daily at 1ppm flow must increase with 30%. The reactor must be big enough to remove the increased amount of oxygen wich is at the moment 4x the amount of nitrate and will be 6 x at a nitrate level of 1ppm. So the space needed to remove the oxygen is +50 %. This for lowering the level to 1ppm. If a level of 0.5 ppm is desired a lot more space is needed. I would not do that by increasing the lenght of the coil. I would not use a coil at all. You do not need more anaerobic space as the amount of nitrate to remove daily stays the same.
Belgian Anthias
New member
][/URL][/QUOTE]
You are removing +- 700 mg of nitrate daily for the moment if your effluent is kept at 0 nitrate. If the level stays steady at 1.5 ppm, 700mg/day is your daily nitrate production. To remove the same quantity of nitrate daily at 1ppm flow must increase with 30%. The reactor must be big enough to remove the increased amount of oxygen wich is at the moment 4x the amount of nitrate and will be 6 x at a nitrate level of 1ppm. So the space needed to remove the oxygen is +50 %. This for lowering the level to 1ppm. If a level of 0.5 ppm is desired a lot more space is needed. I would not do that by increasing the lenght of the coil. I would not use a coil at all. You do not need more anaerobic space as the amount of nitrate to remove daily stays the same.
druckle
New member
I know this thread is about DIY sulfur denitrators but it seems to be one of the better threads available for folks to trade information on their systems performance also. If my post is inappropriate I would appreciate it's being removed and any suggestion for a more appropriate site for the information would be appreciated
I have been using Vinegar dosing for a couple years to control Nitrate in a 300 gallon system and while Nitrate has been well controlled, for my system the concept that good skimming will remove the resulting bacteria (and nitrate) effectively has clearly not been true.
What I find is a large amount of stringy bacteria on rocks and a huge amount of bacterial mulm in my two refugiums which is not able to enter the water column in sizes that allow the skimmer to remove it. This has become a frustrating source of extra work brushing rocks and attempting to mechanically filter out the stringy bacterial mulm on a regular basis. To me, sequestering large amounts of potential nitrate is not removing nitrate.
I consider this to be both unsightly and a ticking timebomb if power were to be lost or a dosing pump malfunctioned.
My exploration to utilize a sulfur denitrator is an effort to remove nitrates effectively without excess, ugly bacterial strings on rockwork or mountains of bacterial mulm collecting in every nook and cranny of the refugiums.
I had a 4" diameter x 27" tall recirculating upflow reactor available in my collection of unused equipment and decided to experiment with sulfur denitrators based on using that.
I charged the reactor with a layer of Matrix pumice at the bottom of the unit, 2 liters of sulfur pearls and another layer of pumice at the top of the reactor. A foam filter layer was placed between each media layer to prevent mixing of the media.
I also placed a separate single flow reactor filled with calcium reactor media in the effluent train. An ORP probe was placed in the secondary calcium reactor body to monitor but not utilize ORP control of the system at this point.
I reduced the Vinegar dosing by 50% at the same time the sulfur denitrator went online.
After a couple weeks I was getting zero effluent nitrate with a tank nitrate of 5ppm and a stable ORP of about -170- to -190 I increased effluent flow by 50% and in an additional week again achieved zero nitrate in the effluent. pH of the sulfur denitrator system effluent has been a constant 7.5 with a tank pH of 8-8.2.
I have noticed large almost sign-signal like swings in orp when effluent rate is changed which takes a day or two to level out. ORP has stabilized at about -210 after increase in effluent flow rate.
My impression is that both heterotrophic and autotrophic denitrifiers are active and that the cyclic swings after an increase in effluent flow rate occur as a result of competition between the two types of bacteria being active (just a guess at this point).
I am seeing a large increase in tank nitrate as the result of unaccessible bacterial mulm degrading in the system now that vinegar dosing is reduced. This will make the whole process of stabilizing the tank and denitrator an exercise in patience for quite a while.
Sorry for the long post but I will update if folks are interested.
I have been using Vinegar dosing for a couple years to control Nitrate in a 300 gallon system and while Nitrate has been well controlled, for my system the concept that good skimming will remove the resulting bacteria (and nitrate) effectively has clearly not been true.
What I find is a large amount of stringy bacteria on rocks and a huge amount of bacterial mulm in my two refugiums which is not able to enter the water column in sizes that allow the skimmer to remove it. This has become a frustrating source of extra work brushing rocks and attempting to mechanically filter out the stringy bacterial mulm on a regular basis. To me, sequestering large amounts of potential nitrate is not removing nitrate.
I consider this to be both unsightly and a ticking timebomb if power were to be lost or a dosing pump malfunctioned.
My exploration to utilize a sulfur denitrator is an effort to remove nitrates effectively without excess, ugly bacterial strings on rockwork or mountains of bacterial mulm collecting in every nook and cranny of the refugiums.
I had a 4" diameter x 27" tall recirculating upflow reactor available in my collection of unused equipment and decided to experiment with sulfur denitrators based on using that.
I charged the reactor with a layer of Matrix pumice at the bottom of the unit, 2 liters of sulfur pearls and another layer of pumice at the top of the reactor. A foam filter layer was placed between each media layer to prevent mixing of the media.
I also placed a separate single flow reactor filled with calcium reactor media in the effluent train. An ORP probe was placed in the secondary calcium reactor body to monitor but not utilize ORP control of the system at this point.
I reduced the Vinegar dosing by 50% at the same time the sulfur denitrator went online.
After a couple weeks I was getting zero effluent nitrate with a tank nitrate of 5ppm and a stable ORP of about -170- to -190 I increased effluent flow by 50% and in an additional week again achieved zero nitrate in the effluent. pH of the sulfur denitrator system effluent has been a constant 7.5 with a tank pH of 8-8.2.
I have noticed large almost sign-signal like swings in orp when effluent rate is changed which takes a day or two to level out. ORP has stabilized at about -210 after increase in effluent flow rate.
My impression is that both heterotrophic and autotrophic denitrifiers are active and that the cyclic swings after an increase in effluent flow rate occur as a result of competition between the two types of bacteria being active (just a guess at this point).
I am seeing a large increase in tank nitrate as the result of unaccessible bacterial mulm degrading in the system now that vinegar dosing is reduced. This will make the whole process of stabilizing the tank and denitrator an exercise in patience for quite a while.
Sorry for the long post but I will update if folks are interested.
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It sounds like you are on the right track. I would guess that the buildup of bacterial mulm from the carbon dosing is a sign of not enough flow in the tank to dislodge the bacterial films that carbon dosing encourages.
For the swings in ORP after you increase flow. I would expect you are observing the lag between the increase in flow and the time it takes for the autotrophic bacteria to colonize more media to take advantage of the increased nitrate availability.
By the sounds of it, you have built up quite a supply of sequestered nitrate in the form of the bacterial mulm. The autotrophic bacteria will continue to grow as you (slowly) increase the flow until you either reach the limit of your sulfur media, or you run out of sequestered nitrate to process (bacterial mulm). At that point you will need to either remove some of your sulfur media, either temporarily or permanently, because the autotrophic bacteria will resort to using sulfate due to the lack of nitrate. This will produce hydrogen sulfide. Basically a sign that you have an overpopulation of sulfur bacteria. How you deal with it is a up to you. Remove media, feed more, etc.
As a precaution you can also put GFO inline with your denitrator effluent to convert any hydrogen sulfide back into elemental sulfur.
Dennis
For the swings in ORP after you increase flow. I would expect you are observing the lag between the increase in flow and the time it takes for the autotrophic bacteria to colonize more media to take advantage of the increased nitrate availability.
By the sounds of it, you have built up quite a supply of sequestered nitrate in the form of the bacterial mulm. The autotrophic bacteria will continue to grow as you (slowly) increase the flow until you either reach the limit of your sulfur media, or you run out of sequestered nitrate to process (bacterial mulm). At that point you will need to either remove some of your sulfur media, either temporarily or permanently, because the autotrophic bacteria will resort to using sulfate due to the lack of nitrate. This will produce hydrogen sulfide. Basically a sign that you have an overpopulation of sulfur bacteria. How you deal with it is a up to you. Remove media, feed more, etc.
As a precaution you can also put GFO inline with your denitrator effluent to convert any hydrogen sulfide back into elemental sulfur.
Dennis
Belgian Anthias
New member
It is a fact that only +- 50 % of the bacterial growth in an aquarium system may be skimmed out by a skimmer. A lot types of bacteria are not skim-able. When they are not consumed they die off and decay and are mineralized producing ammonia.
In a sulphur-denitrator mixed denitrification is normal and will depend on the C/N ratio. Heterotropic growth produces +- 40 x more biomass as autotroph acitivity. Reactors may get clogged.
In a healthy biofilm +- 40% of the film is constantly recycled, Dead biomass of the film is used and transformed to HS This HS is than recycled to SO2 or S depending of the HS:N ratio. For this recycling process nitrate is used and removed. This is a normal ongoing process in a biofilm.
When a high C:N ratio is present the biomass growth will be to much to be recycled due to lack of sufficient nitrate resulting HS is not oxidized in anoxic conditions. ORP below - 100 = anoxic. HS will normally be oxidized when leaving the reactor producing a lot of sulphate without removing nitrate.
In a BADESS we have mixed nitrification and denitrifification, The sulphur-reactor is not kept anoxic.
In a sulphur-denitrator mixed denitrification is normal and will depend on the C/N ratio. Heterotropic growth produces +- 40 x more biomass as autotroph acitivity. Reactors may get clogged.
In a healthy biofilm +- 40% of the film is constantly recycled, Dead biomass of the film is used and transformed to HS This HS is than recycled to SO2 or S depending of the HS:N ratio. For this recycling process nitrate is used and removed. This is a normal ongoing process in a biofilm.
When a high C:N ratio is present the biomass growth will be to much to be recycled due to lack of sufficient nitrate resulting HS is not oxidized in anoxic conditions. ORP below - 100 = anoxic. HS will normally be oxidized when leaving the reactor producing a lot of sulphate without removing nitrate.
In a BADESS we have mixed nitrification and denitrifification, The sulphur-reactor is not kept anoxic.
druckle
New member
I tend to think that it would be difficult to increase flow sufficiently to strip all the bacterial attachment to all surfaces given that there are two apex mp60 and one mp 40 pumps which operate for 4 hours/day in a max power pulsing clean mode in the display tank. During this time the flow is VERY turbulent throughout the tank.
druckle
New member
Belgian Anthias
You seem to have recommended Badess extensively but I have found little in the way of practical definition of how to achieve that operation mode. Is there any English language source which speaks directly to practical operation of a Badess denitrator? If so I would love to be able to read more extensively about Badess operation.
Belgian Anthias
New member
Most users of a sulphur denitrator use it as it was a denitrator based on heterotopic denitrification. Flow is restricted to keep the reactor anoxic. This may work fine at high nitrate levels as high amounts of nitrate can be removed at a limited flow. Problems may be faced when the level drops as due to the limited flow not enough nitrate can be processed for removing the daily production.
When following the guidelines of Mark Longouet the result will be a reactor that will work fine at low nitrate levels. Flow may increase till 10x the volume of the reactor. This means that the reactor is not kept anoxic.
A BADESSystem is not more than a system where a BADES biofilm reactor is incorporated. Such a reactor will still have denitrification activity at a normal DO level and will work fine with an effluent still containing <2ppm DO which means that a lot of nitrate can be removed at a very low nitrate level. Everything was explained several times.
We have a wiki called ' Makazi Baharini' written in Dutch where everything about a BADESS is explained. The wiki was not intended tot be for publication at first. Now we are translating the BADES section into English but it takes a lot more time as expected as my English is not that good. Everything in the wiki is referenced but not all of the references can be published and making the selection is most time consuming. A lot must be rewritten for adapting the text to other references which may be published and can be consulted. Also for adapting the text to 2016 as a lot is changed the last few years in what we know about the nitrogen cycle and denitrification. We can not make the wiki public and once finished we will open it up for members only, for those who are willing to help us with this project and research. As example the theoretical background used for the development of the BADESSystem. In Dutch. A lot of the references are in English.
Voorbeeld: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=badess:theorie#leesvoer
druckle
New member
Belgian Anthias
Is it possible for you to describe the details of your personal badess system together with the details of how you operate it?
If you also happen to have photographs that would be helpful too.
Without an understanding of a proper badess system and how it should be operated most of us English speakers will probably never be able to consider the approach seriously.
Belgian Anthias
New member
Advise is given to remove sulphur to prevent HS production. Is sulphate reduction connected to the amount of sulphur used? How and why? Overpopulation of autotrophe sulphur bacteria?
Studies of the biofilm on sulphur particles has shown that T. denitrificans will die off when not enough nitrate is available and that they will not reduce sulphate.(KoeningEnCo2005) There biomass is then used and recycled. HS is produced which is then oxidized to sulphate or S. This is a normal and ongoing process in a healthy biofilm. The amount of bacteria is matched to the circumstances of that moment in there microbiological environment.
It may be expected that the influent has a high C:N ratio due to the bacterial mulm, in that case most of the denitrification will be heterotropically preventing the growth of autotrophs.
This heterotropic growth may clog the reactor causing decay of the biofilm and a high HS production, to high to be oxidized in anoxic conditions.
If the effluent is aerated as it should to stabilize the PH, the small amount of H2S will immediately be oxidized. GFO as a precaution? Are we planning a HS factory?
As sulphur biofilm-reactors used in a BADESS are not kept anoxic problems with HS do not occur.
Belgian Anthias
New member
BADES is used world wide for removing nitrate. It is used for decades in public aquaria. The process is thoroughly investigated the past decade.
We just follow the guidelines of Marc Longouet and use a reactor with internal flow instead of a tube reactor. There is nothing special about the system. We just keep the reactor NOT annoxic and increase the flow as necessary. And use a reactor that is big enough!
We did a lot of research about BADES to understand why and how. A sulfur denitrator has a bad reputation and we tried to find out why, as a lot of systems are working fine for decades. The main reason is that a lot of users use it as it is a batch reactor when it is in fact a continues flow bio-film reactor. Most users keep the reactor <0.5ppm DO because that is the ideal environment for denitrification in batch reactors. This makes the reactors vulnerable for mismanagement. The results of mismanagement have been published causing the bad reputation. The use of anoxic reactors is very restricted due to the limited flow. And indeed, a sulphur reactor that is kept anoxic may cause problems when managed incorrectly and only for this reason such a reactor can not be recommended to be used in a life support system.
We use it as a biofilm reactor. Within a biofilm denitrification takes place in normal aerobe conditions. The denitrification rate is controlled by the flow and the nitrate level. This makes that the reactor is able for simultaneous nitrification and mixotrophe denitrification.
The composition of the biofilm depends of the influent and the substrate on which it grows, in this case sulphur.
All details of a BADESS are in our wiki Makazi Baharini and will become available when the translation is finished.
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